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Documenting how spells and abilities work. Also character changes from DQ Heroes 1 to DQ Heroes 2.


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On 12/27/2020 at 10:01 PM, Plattym3 said:

I read all this and my head spins. You've gone quite in depth with all this! Hope this helps future min/max players!

I try my best. If it helps any, to basically sum it all up, good continuous, physical attacks and abilities are what are best for DPS. So characters that are really strong are Carver, Desdemona, Terry, Lazarel/Teresa as a gladiator, Psaro, Luceus, Aurora, and Torneko. The other important thing is very strong support. So characters like Lazarel/Teresa as a priest, Angelo, and Meena are hugely important for helping the party out. And it doesn't hurt that the priest vocation and Angelo are fairly good for damage output in most situations, too.

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Sure thing. It’d be nice to have this somewhere as an extra resource. 

Meena write up: -Meena is the most frail character in the game at 290 defense, and 385 HP with Metal King Orb. She has a very good +18 dodge though. -Obviously she's meant to be a mage chara

Been a while since the last post. Figured I'd go ahead with a couple updates: -Guide has resumed. I'm working on incorporating .mp4 files to make it a lot easier to view all a character's attribu

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20201229205536_1.thumb.jpg.758b7e3ba01ca229250f9d80bf2b33ed.jpg

This is crazy. And I mean in a surprising and good way: I got this with ANGELO.

That simple Oomph boosting set I give to Carver, sage, and Desdemona? Gave it to Angelo, and I got this. It's entirely possible to get into the rare three minute category with him, and he's a bow user. This took me completely by surprise. I knew bow was good, but all it needed was Oomph and a few proper accessories to push it into such a crazy state of DPS.

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On 12/29/2020 at 7:01 PM, AzureZoa said:

20201229205536_1.thumb.jpg.758b7e3ba01ca229250f9d80bf2b33ed.jpg

This is crazy. And I mean in a surprising and good way: I got this with ANGELO.

That simple Oomph boosting set I give to Carver, sage, and Desdemona? Gave it to Angelo, and I got this. It's entirely possible to get into the rare three minute category with him, and he's a bow user. This took me completely by surprise. I knew bow was good, but all it needed was Oomph and a few proper accessories to push it into such a crazy state of DPS.

Impressive! Makes me rethink Angelo altogether.

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Posted (edited)

20210101235452_1.thumb.jpg.f4e16a6c64f814fee7e56d75d742b37e.jpg

I cannot stress how angry this fight made me with Bianca. And I mean swearing my head off mad. I really ****ing hate Estark right now...

 

Anyways, rant aside, this took at least probably 12 attempts to get. Maybe more. Bianca is fragile, and has a moderate dodge at +10 only. So while she can dodge stuff somewhat, she's nowhere near as tanky or safe as any other bow user. I really had to calculate my dodges, and I was trying to play around Estark's tension like with Angelo, but zoning him out compared to Angelo is just...it's simply not possible.

Bianca's primary DPS comes combined from her Plasma Dome and just firing arrows. Or you can get somewhat higher DPS by spamming Plasma Dome since the initial hit is pretty strong. Angelo has the ranged Hyper Sniper and a...+24 dodge I think it is. So because Plasma Dome takes time to aim, she can't safely zone out as fast as him. She plays this fight up close to moderate range, which is hard for her because of frailty and safety...

So before I get to her actual DPS comparison (see following post for it), I should mention this fight went horrendously, but better than any other other prior dozen or so attempts. I had an absolutely fantastic run going before Estark got Bianca with a tension amped Multislash. Given that was my bad because she was recovering from the end lag of Plasma Dome when Estark did his wind up animation for Multislash. I couldn't dodge between his legs fast enough because of the distance from him, so there was nothing I could do.

But this doesn't account for all the other BS he gave me in this fight. It was just amazing how horrendous my luck was. I literally lost two rounds that I had to Evac out of because I had one Healstone left, he uses Snooze, then proceeds to jump at me into his own attack. I simply couldn't tank the sleep explosions when he fell asleep. Or the one time he was in maximum tension, his Snooze actually catches Bianca, and he does his 3K damage attack...yet somehow the game didn't want to put him to sleep like it should have, and cancel out his attack in the process...

Yeah...that's literally a few examples of what happened...

SO! For the strategy, you want to save up your tension and get it before Estark does. Not a problem to do. You can do it practically any time with no difficulty. You want to save this for the first time he tenses up, and uses whatever version of Snooze he uses. Activate tension, then proceed to abuse him with as many Plasma Domes as you can fire off. If you calculate it right, you can get him stuck in his weakened state twice in a row.

This is to minimize any potential sleep explosions that Bianca simply cannot deal with. She has no perfect block, and dodging the sleep explosions are simply impossible. You can only tank them. You will have to play around Estark in tension a few times during the fight, so make sure your dodges are on point. During my fight I believe there were two points where I simply couldn't avoid putting Estark to sleep, and it cost me a lot of time. Just keep up the strategy of arrows and Plasma Dome as much as possible.

Edited by AzureZoa
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I did another test run, and got one that was actually "clean". I'll leave the original post up for strats, but gonna edit out the DPS segments because I got some new results that make me really believe otherwise. I'll include them in here though:

So I mentioned getting getting sub six minutes with Bianca was feasible, but I finally had a really solid run with extremely low crap from Estark. I shaved off almost half a second with it. Right at 6:30. 24 seconds shaved off. Pretty good considering. It should be possible to push a tad below 6:20 at best. Probably around 6:15.

So now I believe otherwise. Her damage output is still good though. It's not lacking thankfully, and this round I went in with a set that maximizes her DPS out Plasma Dome. Turns out it's actually considered a spell by the game. Not an ability. Huh. Go figure. So end result is her DPS is actually better than sage with Oomph powered whip by a significant margin.

She doesn't have anywhere near Angelo's DPS, and I plan to compare her results to Lazarel and Teresa with bow as well. Other small nuggets of wisdom that I learned from a lucky level is: Plasma Dome is incapable of criticals. Explosive arrows cannot critical either.

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Posted (edited)

Gonna post here to correct misinformation in an updated post in case people miss:

On 12/26/2020 at 11:01 AM, AzureZoa said:

Okay so experimentation with the Oomph sage set up gave me clear insight into its potential. I had a bad run with Estark, where he was hopping around a lot, and spammed Disruptive Wave too many times where I lost count. I still ended up with 7:18, so with a more precise run, I could see this getting into the low six minute category. Maybe sub six if everything aligns, though I think that might be pushing it.

(If you're reading this later on, disregard the first paragraph. Sub seven is plausible but hard. Sub six is not.)

:

On 12/26/2020 at 11:01 AM, AzureZoa said:

Also on the subject of potential, I found staff finally has offensive merit in the priest/priestess vocation of all things. Staff still as a mediocre attack string, and Whirly Burly is still extremely bad on single targets, but priest/priestess actually get access to a fantastic offensive ability to help it out: Furious Flurry. The damage is a lot higher than I expected. So using it in moderation is key, but really a good ability due to how bad staff is one single targets. In total one use does about 1.8K in damage at end game with 555 attack using the set up I have.

It's much, much better than Crushed Ice because there's no horrible start up lag, and does more damage. Plus it appears to just finish faster in general. Priest makes it a well rounded set with Kabuff, Multiheal, Deliverance, and Furious Flurry. Would recommend giving this a shot, too.

(Disregard the 1.8K damage, and saying Furious Flurry is better than Crushed Ice. I did some calcs later and the actual normal range is 1.2K for both of them. They're both as strong as each other. Crushed Ice is slower, but can freeze for a while, and costs 5 MP less. It's definitely better in most situations over Furious Flurry.)

Read the parentheses for updated information.

Edited by AzureZoa
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Posted (edited)

Okay. At last I have the DPS comparison between Lazarel/Teresa as sage with bow. I ran as much attack up buffs as I could with an uber ace of spoils that gives 20% ability damage increases. Ran most of my DPS off Shining Shot and Hyper Sniper, and used them to the limit as much as my MP would allow.

I got about five or six criticals over the course of the match that shaved off considerable time, which I cannot get with Bianca...and I ended up roughly 20 seconds faster. Disregarding my last move that whiffed on him, time would've been about 6:07 or 6:08. So taking into consideration the sheer amount of damage per critical I was doing (like 4.5K), and the ridiculous number I got, I can conclude that sage bow DPS is roughly around Bianca's, maybe a hair worse, without all these criticals. So with this info, I think in general sage is the better bow user than Bianca.

The extra 75 HP, seven extra defense, and the very important +5 for a natural +15 dodge makes sage much less risky to use. I think Bianca has the better arrow charges (the best in fact), but she doesn't have access to the Zam line that's the best spell in the game. Plus sage has access to Snooze as well. Bianca shreds crowds better because she fires the most off her Rain of Pain, but Shining Shot can function as a crowd killer (though to a noticeably lesser extent) as well. Plus it is a highly damaging single target ability that possesses more immediate damage than Plasma Dome.

Though the thing is Bianca doesn't burn through all her MP like sage does when all she needs is just one move and arrow spam. Also, she has access to one of the absolute best spells still in the Frizz line, and it costs less than half of the required MP for Kazammle. She even naturally packs 53 more MP than sage. So I think in terms of consistent DPS, Bianca wins out. She has the highest natural attack of any bow user, largest MP pool, and highest deftness. She has the second highest magical might as well (30 under sage). So she's dealing considerable spell damage.

Despite all this, I think the bulk and extra safety on dodge simply is more important to have due to how chaotic this game gets. It's very important to be able to survive some of the strongest moves in the game, and Bianca simply cannot do this. One mistake and she goes down quicker than any other character.

Edited by AzureZoa
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I'm starting to compile a list of spells and abilities in this game using Estark as my guinea pig:

New moves registered as spells:

-Plasma Dome (every single hitbox is buffed by spell damage)

-Miracle Moon (oddly only the first two hitboxes receive damage buffs, the following hits after cannot be buffed by ability or spell perks)

Nera information:

-Her Hubble Bubble scales off magical might rather than attack, so despite packing Oomph, she cannot use it effectively herself due to her unnaturally low attack power. Even Strength Ring set ups do nothing.

-Maelstrom surprisingly sucks in her Hubble Bubbles, so trapping groups of enemies into it, and popping does a lot of damage.

-Listed above, but Miracle Moon is considered a spell for the first two hits.

-Make sure to run a Dark Orb on her for safety. Only has an awful +5 dodge. Very easy for her to get hit, and has low natural bulk like Bianca to begin with.

Compiled list of bow abilities so far:

-Shining Shot

-Hyper Sniper

-Rain of Pain

-Needle Shot/Needle Rain (Needle Shot hits three times, Needle Rain eight times with each giving at least one guaranteed critical, though individual base damage ranges for each hit are very low)

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Been a while since the last post. Figured I'd go ahead with a couple updates:

-Guide has resumed. I'm working on incorporating .mp4 files to make it a lot easier to view all a character's attributes.

-Progress on DQH2 for Switch has resumed. Am currently headed towards the battle at the Great Divide. Been just power leveling my crew, and waiting for my computer to return from repairs. Can't really understand a lot of hiragana and katakana, so trying to pick skills for my characters has been impossible without the Steam version to refer to.

-Honestly, I really don't like the performance of the Switch version. The console can barely handle the game. There's extremely frequent frame drops. Graphical quality has been just gutted compared to the other versions as well. Plus the overall physics are really wonky. The cape in the DQH1 costume is extremely stiff. I think they changed the bones for it.

-So far I haven't encountered Ragnar. I really have no idea where he's gonna appear. I'll provide updates when I get him, but from what I can guess so far, he's extremely late into the story. I'll include stats and weapons for him as well. If there's anyone skilled in hiragana and/or katakana, I could use your help compiling Ragnar's weapon proficiency, skill tree, and more when I get access to him.

-The exclusive content in the game I can confirm as follows: Ragnar plus weapons for him, map with Malroth, Prince of Midenhall costume acquired after defeating Malroth, and Erdrick's outfit as DLC added to the game. Teresa's hair comes undone from her ribbon in this outfit during tension just like her normal one. I've been thinking of somehow taking this content and adding it to the Steam version as an unofficial patch. I just need to find the files first.

 

Anyways that's it for now.

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Didn't take a picture fast enough, but finally sub five minutes with Terry. 4:57. Just had to switch up his Lightning Strike to Double-Edged Slash, and alternate between that and Uber Cutting Edge in super high tension. Pretty positive it can go lower since this run was pretty bad. Still, good stuff for my man, Terry. Goal is accomplished. 👍

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Meena write up:

-Meena is the most frail character in the game at 290 defense, and 385 HP with Metal King Orb. She has a very good +18 dodge though.

-Obviously she's meant to be a mage character, but lacks the offense you'd expect from the class. Meena's offensive abilities are some of the weakest in the game, coupled with extremely long animations tied to them. Kaswoosh or activating any tarot has a substantial animation tied to it (Kawsoosh especially).

-Meena is all about status effects and healing. Her attack string does low damage, her attack is very low, and her Wild Cards ability is extremely weak in terms of damage even at level 99 (does sub 100 damage even on basic enemies like Metal Slime Knights in Unos' world). All of her tarots, minus The Empress and The Tower, inflict a status effect. Death and The Fool have similar damage ranges, being her second most powerful tarots, but both have the least desirable effects. The primary set I run for her is The Moon, The Tower, The Devil, and Multiheal. Meena lacks a lot of offense, but her support is among the strongest of any character.

-Let's cover her The Fool and Death tarots. First, like I mentioned, The Fool and Death are her second most damaging tarots with around the same damage ranges, but the least desirable effects. Death possesses an effect similar to Whack, and any long time DQ fan will tell you...it's not very good lol. The effect is rare. The Fool is similar. Poison is fairly uncommon to trigger, and the damage over time takes way too long in between ticks of damage to occur. Very bad abilities. The damage might be worth it, no? Nah. Even though they're her most damaging tarots after The Tower, the damage is around 1/3 of that of The Tower can potentially be. Roughly 370-380 damage range at level 99 with a very optimal build.

-The set I recommended above is the best for support. The Tower with an optimal build can do in excess of 1,000 damage. It is considered a spell by the game. Easily her best, and most important, damage output option. The Moon does around 50 less damage compared to Death/The Fool on average, which isn't really much considering how low their damage is to begin with anyways. What makes it so important is it guarantees dazzle, even against the likes of Estark (even if it's like for a second in length), giving physical attacks a chance to miss Meena given her low physical bulk. Same for her allies. Dazzle on more normal enemies lasts much longer than against someone like Estark as well. Multiheal is the best heal option in the game for the crew (minus Fullheal healstones if you're playing with AIs). The Devil is also extremely important for crew support. Damage from it is the lowest of any of her tarots, at sub-300 damage even with an optimal build, but guarantees a defense drop when activated. This is vital for crew support and DPS. It's essentially a ranged Sap on everything affected by her tarot markers, meaning it's a ranged Kasap from anywhere, which is pretty crazy for support.

-If you want to max her DPS, it really boils down to using all hits of her attack string, then follow up with The Tower on an optimal build that maxes out spell damage, and her magical might. Keep in mind The Tower cannot critical just like Bianca's Plasma Dome. Only the generic named spells like Frizz can critical.

Edited by AzureZoa
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  • 2 weeks later...

Whoa. Over 4,000 views. Thanks everyone. I'm doing a Maya write up this week.

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6 hours ago, AzureZoa said:

Whoa. Over 4,000 views. Thanks everyone. I'm doing a Maya write up this week.

It may not spark the typed response, but it's fascinating reads.

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8 hours ago, Plattym3 said:

It may not spark the typed response, but it's fascinating reads.

Tbqh I wasn't sure if people most viewers found it interesting or not. With the lack of typed responses I wasn't completely sure like you said. So that makes me happy. Gives me more motivation to continue with this. Thanks. :thumbsup:

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Posted (edited)

This is about half a week overdue, but largely because I had to spend extra time with Maya, just to get an understanding for her gimmick and move set. I'm going to preface this and say: Maya is very, very bad, and her gimmick is very, very bad.

-We'll start small. She's barely bulkier than her sister at 400 HP and 305 defense, but with a much better dodge at +26 compared to +18. She has one of the best dodges in the game.

-Maya has lackluster most everything, and I mean that quite literally. She has a weak attack string, of which her R5 puts her into the air. C2 and C4 also put her into the air. C3 and C5 are very slow, weak moves, that cannot be dodge cancelled. These are major red flags for a character's safety. You do NOT want to be in midair despite Maya's gimmick, which I will cover next. The characters with the best aerials have ones that let them stay in the air momentarily to avoid things like shockwaves, and then descend to the ground very quickly. Examples include Psaro and Carver. These are characters with ideal aerials.

-Maya's gimmick puts her into the air after 100 hits, or after using her ability Pink Typhoon. It lasts for a little bit even after the combo breaks, and continues to remain active while pummeling targets with more hits. She gains three swift dodges, and descends to the ground more slowly with this gimmick active. She can also use her standard attack aerials as much as she likes so long as the gimmick is active. She is also the only character who can use her spells and abilities in the air, minus her Sultry Dance ability.

-Maya's gimmick is to be an airborne fighter, but this is a massive disadvantageous state to be in despite the triple dodges. Getting back to the ground to retain your mobility, and position yourself properly are the most important things. Especially for safety given Maya's overall lack of bulk. And she descends more slowly as a result. It's best to forgo her gimmick altogether, especially if you want maximum damage output. Maya is going to rely a lot on her attack string for safe damage, which I will cover next.

-Maya's damage output comes primarily from three things: attack string mixed with Butterfly Ballet, nuking targets with Kasizz, and the occasional Sword Dance when you can fight the opening to use it/mix it up with Kasizz in super high tension. Maya does NOT have any good combo attacks. She is very, very unsafe, and very, very slow with all of them. None can be dodge cancelled. Two put her into the air at the end of the attack. Thankfully Butterfly Ballet lasts an incredibly long time, and it does respectable enough damage to be used in combination with Maya's attack string to do somewhat passable damage. Kasizz at endgame can do over 1,000 damage by itself with no buffs. Slapping on some good endgame gear can see it regularly do 1,400 or more. Just make sure both lines of flame overlap to get max damage. Sword Dance is incredibly risky to use, and I do mean this. It is perhaps one of the most unsafe moves to use in the entire game. You can't do anything until it is done, but it does astounding damage. It takes a lot of getting used to enemy patterns to pull it out safely, but it's one of her best options for DPS. Especially in super high tension being paired off with Kasizz.

-The aerial versions of her spells and abilities are largely the same minus Disco Inferno. Instead of somersaulting repeatedly forward, it causes her to flip down towards the ground. Everything else is functionally identical, so there's no need to even use her aerial gimmick even more. Pink Typhoon can cause her to continuously rise in the air.

-Maya has some unique combinations like using her C4 > Kasizz for good projectile camping, or Butterfly Ballet > C5/Sword Dance for extra damage. These tactics have good synergy with one another.  Though they're all risky, just like everything Maya has pretty much.

That's pretty much the write up. There's not much else to cover. Her other options are just too weak in terms of damage, or functionally are there to help her get her aerial gimmick, like Fan Dango. The best set you can run for her is the Sizz line of spells, Sword Dance for when you see an opening, Butterfly Ballet for constant in the targets' face, and Sultry Dance for team support.

Edited by AzureZoa
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Just did about half a dozen rounds on Estark again for testing purposes for DPS. Generally Maya's damage output is not very high. She struggles to find any safe openings to use her combo attacks, so a lot of her damage output really comes to down to Kasizz and Butterfly Ballet with her attack string. In tension, she gains a lot more potential through a lot of burst DPS thanks to Sword Dance spam. I cancel it as early as possible with Sizz, then immediately cancel back into Sword Dance to optimize my damage output. Maya struggles a lot in this fight because of Estark's sleep mechanic, so you really have to time your tension uses for when he falls asleep.

Yesterday, during my first attempt, I got a really paltry 9:03. Since then I've been getting around 7:40, even when optimizing a lot of her damage output during the right times, and using her spells as much as possible. Even while keeping Estark fully tensed up so I can minimize time loss due to his sleep explosions. Her damage output is really low. So far out of all the characters I've tested who can sub ten minute Estark, she has the lowest of them all.

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Holy ****. I just had THE BEST run with Estark using Bianca. Instead of opting for the Metal King Orb, I just decided to use the Dark Orb for extra dodging to put her at +20. Well, this made all the difference, and despite a few mess ups, I got sub six minutes with her! 5:56. I pushed her MP to the limit this fight with Plasma Dome spam, and it really, really paid off. I only had to tank one set of sleep explosions from Estark, and saved both my tension uses for when he fell asleep. So after this, she really does have solid DPS. I pushed it down by more than 30 seconds since my last attempt with her. Compared to sage with bow, after my super fantastic run last time with all those criticals off Hyper Sniper, and canceling into Shining Shot as well, I can definitely say Bianca has the second best DPS of the bow users. She's still far off from Angelo, but getting into the five minute category, without any major abilities that could critical, is incredibly insane to pull off. Plasma Dome is incapable of criticals, and not once did I use her Frizz line of spells.

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14 hours ago, Plattym3 said:

Nice victory!

Thanks. I got really lucky with it. Should start recording these runs more like I used to.

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Posted (edited)

Okay, so did a couple rounds with priest and staff. Remember the comparisons between Crushed Ice and Furious Flurry I did a while back? Go with Furious Flurry every time. It's much more safe than Crushed Ice because it's much faster. Crushed Ice has lower MP cost and can freeze, but it's way slower, making it much more risky. The damage output between the two is practically the same though.

Anyways, for those Estark rounds, I got sub 10 minutes with priest twice, but the time was really bad. 8:40 area both times. Priest doesn't have the damage output you're looking for with staff versus Estark. It's not bad for other enemies, but all that damage comes from Furious Flurry, so wasting all that MP will leave you without the ability to support. I still can't get below 10 minutes with spear, but that's largely due to the mechanics of the fight once you get Estark to start using tension. Damage output at the start with the weapon is actually pretty quick. If I could get a run without him doing this tension stuff, I'd take a guess and say around seven minutes is what spear could theoretically get. Stick with spear for offense for priest. It's much better in every situation. You don't even need to burn MP since you still have beefy hits, even versus Estark, with this move set on endgame priest with a proper set up.

Edited by AzureZoa
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Posted (edited)

Used this build to get a 5:33. Can optimize the fight a bit more, but found whip has the best DPS of any of sage's weapons. My guess is on an optimal fight, or with a lot of luck, pushing it to low 5:00 is possible.

My Video.gif

 

Edited by AzureZoa
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What's with the 5:00 thing? Is that a personal goal or is there some reward? I feel like you've mentioned this before.

Like how you've got that video as a GIF!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Plattym3 said:

What's with the 5:00 thing? Is that a personal goal or is there some reward? I feel like you've mentioned this before.

Like how you've got that video as a GIF!

The minute marker I use is a test of a weapon's DPS. When you defeat any version of Estark or Dragonlord, they tell you exactly in how many minutes and seconds it took you to defeat them. I fight against Estark Extreme exclusively because I believe he's the most fairly designed superboss. Everything of his has proper counterplay, minus his explosions he does when he sleeps. Only characters with parries or counters can avoid damage from it (well, except Yangus, because he has Defending Champion). Estark Extreme has very high defense, but his HP is very reasonable, so it provides the best scenario to really gauge a character's damage output. Estark isn't like Dragonlord where you could waste a lot of time if Dragonlord wants to spam his stage wide attack, or do his fireball drops from above. That wastes a lot of time, interfering with a proper time to gauge DPS as a result. Plus Dragonlord's health is extremely, extremely bloated, and his head is his weak point, causing you to do much more damage.

Just to give an example, but Dread Dragonlord, which is the second most powerful form of his, but has the highest HP, is so bad, I've only ever beaten him once solo. His health is so astronomical, and with the reduced time limit of eight minutes versus him to get a good run, you're forced to run the ultimate glass cannon set versus him. You can't even get hit once or it's GG. You have to play it extremely safe, so it doesn't even give a proper measure of DPS either. And once you get him down to half health, his attack speed goes up even more lol. Koei Tecmo really wanted him to be killed with other players. His design is so dumb.

But as for Estark, there are a bunch of variations to account for, such as if he wants to hop too much, which costs more time. Or if you don't time tension right, and you have to tank his sleep explosions. Or how many criticals occur, but I make sure to take that into consideration, and give an estimate of how much time it saved as a result.

Edited by AzureZoa
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