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Documenting how spells and abilities work. Also character changes from DQ Heroes 1 to DQ Heroes 2.


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On 8/24/2020 at 1:58 PM, AzureZoa said:

You’re welcome. I’m just trying to learn this game, and share what I’m learning. I’m a firm believer in knowledge is power, and I share what I enjoy doing. So far I believe spear is passable on practically every normal enemy, and some of the stronger enemies like Pazuzu, Belial, Wight King, with it losing more efficiency on bosses like Estark, Dragonlord, Fractos, etc. Essentially the big bads, superbosses, or enemies with simply too much HP. I don’t think most enemy health is unreasonable for spear to deal with, even for an endgame priest or Kiryl. 
 

I think Uber Maulstrom is an absolute must on this set because it really turns up its zoning potential, clears crowds really well, and you can instantly go into a Maulstrom right after a Thunder Thrust. Lightning Conductor is also solid. Especially for stunning machine enemies. Chain Lightning is awful though. The damage ranges per hit are nothing special, locks you in place, and only the final hit does decent damage. For priestess (Teresa is my primary go to for this vocation), I run Kabuff, Multiheal, Reheal line, and Maulstrom line. Maulstrom is such a game changer for offense that it’s helped a bunch for her offensive pressure. 
 

For gladiator I tend to run the usual skills like Hurt Convertor, Blind Man’s Biff, and Maulstrom. The last skill just depends on the situation, but this is generally enough to get everything done. Gladiator has a natural +20 dodge, which really works off the back hops. Priest on the other hand has the worst dodge alongside the likes of mage at a mere +5. So what I do is run the Dark Orb on Teresa or Kiryl to give them an extra +10 frames for invincibility. Otherwise the back hop is really bad for escaping pressure. It costs some defense, but their defense stat is still enough for endgame, and they can cast Kabuff to remedy it no problem. 

Yeah, I feel you on Kiryl. I kept him in my party for the majority of the game just for his healing. 

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Sure thing. It’d be nice to have this somewhere as an extra resource. 

So for post #101, I got two things: 1. Guide will be started up this Monday. Get hype. 2. A gift from me to you: This is extremely class, weapon, and skill specific, but they

Notes about some abilities and spells: Lots of spells and abilities that rely on multiple hits, such as Rain of Pain, will only hit a target once. So if you try to use Rain of Pain on Estark, onl

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Actually I should take back something I said because I was horribly wrong: Blind Man's Biff saves the spear's DPS like crazy. Sub six minutes is possible on Estark Extreme lmao. That's a really good time. Especially for spear because it lacks the safety versus him, and by that, I mean his sleep explosions. You have to tank them. There's no dodging them. Despite the crappy dodges, spear is definitely a solid weapon for priest and gladiator. I've been going through so many weapons lately, and I feel like spear is actually much better than I should give it credit for.

Like, I feel incredibly exasperated at how bad all of the sage's weapons are. The best two are bow and whip, and even then their kits are pretty mediocre. There's no good DPS for single targets aside from Hyper Sniper. They have good crowd tools, but after experimenting with mage, there's literally no reason why anyone should seriously considering running a spell set on sage over mage. Mage running Arcane Echo and Ring of Ruin literally ruins crowds of endgame enemies no problem. Sage is a bit tankier, with a health option, but why would anyone run an all out offensive set and do that? That's what the spell set up is. And mage has support with Kasap.

Gladiator got access to ALL the best weapons, and I really mean that...minus axe of course. Axe is just...axe. It's terrible. Anyways, that aside, gladiator gets access to four good offensive weapons: claws, sword and shield, twin swords, and spear. Spear obviously isn't as high as the other three, but with the unique abilities to gladiator, with that good +20 dodge, Blind Man's Biff, Hurt Convertor for healing, and the Maulstrom line, you have a very well balanced weapon for every scenario you could think of. It doesn't have the DPS options that twin swords have courtesy of A Cut Above and Blind Man's Biff, or that AMAZING +36 dodge, but it does offer better crowd clearing over twin swords I would say. The Maulstrom line is just that good. Plus much more reach in general, courtesy of Thunder Thrust/Spear of Influence/Maulstrom line, so you can keep your distance with it over twin swords. Plus twin swords can't chain that invincibility off those back hops like spear can. :P

Claws are much more specialized for single target killing, and horrendously lack crowd options, or ranged options period. It has everything else you're looking for that spear doesn't offer though, so that's another example of spear being able to carve itself a niche. Last sword and shield are probably what might do the spear in. Both are extremely good move sets, but sword/shield offer incredible ranged offense that even supersedes the might of Thunder Thrust: Whirlwind Reaper. Plus it has access to perfect blocks that increase tension, and the same dodge attributes of +20. And then you have the close range offense combination of Flame Slash and Blind Man's Biff. I think sword/shield are probably what straight up outclass spear compared to the other move sets, though I will test more on it.

Also, after finally testing out all classes thoroughly, I think there's a few to consider looking into if you're looking for specific play styles. However, this might seem a bit controversial, but warrior and sage are not that good. Sage is one of the two unlockable classes...but there's literally nothing for it to offer over the offense of mage with 300% damage critical spells, or some close range option that it sorely lacks. Warrior is a well balanced class, but that's it in stats. Its move set is outdone in damage by gladiator, and outdone even by Luceus and Aurora. And Terry especially. And its abilities are either very weak, or not very useful. Morale Masher is a marginally less expensive Disruptive Wave...but Psaro quite literally has it, and a far better move set.

So for the good classes: gladiator, mage, and priest. There's no literal use for thief. It is outdone is every respect by any other vocation or niche you're looking for. Martial artist is outdone by gladiator. Even its best move set, claws, is outdone in DPS by gladiator with claws, and it requires less set up on superbosses with Blind Man's Biff. Gladiator has lower stats in general, but much better dodges, access to more move sets for versatility, and it has basically everything you want in claws taken to the next level. The niche for martial artist is just not there. The tests with Estark Extreme taught me a lot.

Mage I already broke down quite a bit. 300% spell damage with a bit of set up that can level groups of endgame enemies. It's the best spell move set you can access. You can get 100% critical spells for each of its three weapons since Ring of Ruin is a vocation based ability, and not a weapon based one. Arcane Echo is tied to heavy wand though, but 100% critical spells for each weapon completely outstrips anything sage can try to do to touch it. However mage has the lowest HP, doesn't hit 300 defense even with the Metal King Orb, and has only a +5 dodge. If you want to fling highly destructive spells, you will need to balance out the dodges and defense on this move set.

Priest offers even better support than Kiryl due to Multiheal, though priest has lower stats in general. Multiheal is one of the most potent healing options in the game, plus it is tied to spear no less, so you have a good weapon for offense and for support. Kabuff combined with the Reheal line and Multiheal gives a lot of versatility to help the party, and Maulstrom is there to help shore up crowds of normal enemies in the way.

 

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On 8/26/2020 at 12:05 AM, AzureZoa said:

Actually I should take back something I said because I was horribly wrong: Blind Man's Biff saves the spear's DPS like crazy. Sub six minutes is possible on Estark Extreme lmao. That's a really good time. Especially for spear because it lacks the safety versus him, and by that, I mean his sleep explosions. You have to tank them. There's no dodging them. Despite the crappy dodges, spear is definitely a solid weapon for priest and gladiator. I've been going through so many weapons lately, and I feel like spear is actually much better than I should give it credit for.

Like, I feel incredibly exasperated at how bad all of the sage's weapons are. The best two are bow and whip, and even then their kits are pretty mediocre. There's no good DPS for single targets aside from Hyper Sniper. They have good crowd tools, but after experimenting with mage, there's literally no reason why anyone should seriously considering running a spell set on sage over mage. Mage running Arcane Echo and Ring of Ruin literally ruins crowds of endgame enemies no problem. Sage is a bit tankier, with a health option, but why would anyone run an all out offensive set and do that? That's what the spell set up is. And mage has support with Kasap.

Gladiator got access to ALL the best weapons, and I really mean that...minus axe of course. Axe is just...axe. It's terrible. Anyways, that aside, gladiator gets access to four good offensive weapons: claws, sword and shield, twin swords, and spear. Spear obviously isn't as high as the other three, but with the unique abilities to gladiator, with that good +20 dodge, Blind Man's Biff, Hurt Convertor for healing, and the Maulstrom line, you have a very well balanced weapon for every scenario you could think of. It doesn't have the DPS options that twin swords have courtesy of A Cut Above and Blind Man's Biff, or that AMAZING +36 dodge, but it does offer better crowd clearing over twin swords I would say. The Maulstrom line is just that good. Plus much more reach in general, courtesy of Thunder Thrust/Spear of Influence/Maulstrom line, so you can keep your distance with it over twin swords. Plus twin swords can't chain that invincibility off those back hops like spear can. :P

Claws are much more specialized for single target killing, and horrendously lack crowd options, or ranged options period. It has everything else you're looking for that spear doesn't offer though, so that's another example of spear being able to carve itself a niche. Last sword and shield are probably what might do the spear in. Both are extremely good move sets, but sword/shield offer incredible ranged offense that even supersedes the might of Thunder Thrust: Whirlwind Reaper. Plus it has access to perfect blocks that increase tension, and the same dodge attributes of +20. And then you have the close range offense combination of Flame Slash and Blind Man's Biff. I think sword/shield are probably what straight up outclass spear compared to the other move sets, though I will test more on it.

Also, after finally testing out all classes thoroughly, I think there's a few to consider looking into if you're looking for specific play styles. However, this might seem a bit controversial, but warrior and sage are not that good. Sage is one of the two unlockable classes...but there's literally nothing for it to offer over the offense of mage with 300% damage critical spells, or some close range option that it sorely lacks. Warrior is a well balanced class, but that's it in stats. Its move set is outdone in damage by gladiator, and outdone even by Luceus and Aurora. And Terry especially. And its abilities are either very weak, or not very useful. Morale Masher is a marginally less expensive Disruptive Wave...but Psaro quite literally has it, and a far better move set.

So for the good classes: gladiator, mage, and priest. There's no literal use for thief. It is outdone is every respect by any other vocation or niche you're looking for. Martial artist is outdone by gladiator. Even its best move set, claws, is outdone in DPS by gladiator with claws, and it requires less set up on superbosses with Blind Man's Biff. Gladiator has lower stats in general, but much better dodges, access to more move sets for versatility, and it has basically everything you want in claws taken to the next level. The niche for martial artist is just not there. The tests with Estark Extreme taught me a lot.

Mage I already broke down quite a bit. 300% spell damage with a bit of set up that can level groups of endgame enemies. It's the best spell move set you can access. You can get 100% critical spells for each of its three weapons since Ring of Ruin is a vocation based ability, and not a weapon based one. Arcane Echo is tied to heavy wand though, but 100% critical spells for each weapon completely outstrips anything sage can try to do to touch it. However mage has the lowest HP, doesn't hit 300 defense even with the Metal King Orb, and has only a +5 dodge. If you want to fling highly destructive spells, you will need to balance out the dodges and defense on this move set.

Priest offers even better support than Kiryl due to Multiheal, though priest has lower stats in general. Multiheal is one of the most potent healing options in the game, plus it is tied to spear no less, so you have a good weapon for offense and for support. Kabuff combined with the Reheal line and Multiheal gives a lot of versatility to help the party, and Maulstrom is there to help shore up crowds of normal enemies in the way.

 

So, do you think Mage is the best offensive option for the environments that are just swarming with enemies? Melee just doesn't seem to cut it in those situations....or at least that's how I felt. 

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It depends honestly. If your character or someone in your crew is capable of reliably stunning larger enemies, then it's not as bad. Psaro is easily the best character for absolutely shutting down swarms of larger enemies given his kit doesn't need MP for it, and he can rampage without it, but he can still do it with Liberation as well. A Cut Above from him also stuns for the last two hits, or for all hits when enhanced with Liberation. Cesar with Solar Flair is a colossal move that does a lot of damage, and stuns larger enemies. Luceus and Aurora reliably stun larger enemies as well. This is why it's so important to have such an option in this game. It's one of the best things to have in the game.

Mage however can't stun with any spells. Only Kazammle stuns larger enemies. So you need a lot of room to set up and cast spells. Ring of Ruin into Arcane Echo is the quickest way to set up. Then you can start flinging spells. Plus you'll likely need one of the AI/a partner to act as bait. But once set up is done, expect to level endgame foes in like two to three casts of Kafrizz. It's pretty busted if you can get it going.

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Wow. Over a thousand views. Thanks everyone. I'm gonna start working at compiling a few planned projects after these others I get done with, so maybe you guys will look forward to the actual guide...but as a beta version. :P

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So here’s some plans for the guide, because this will take me lots or hours to do, so I will release it in stages.

1. First planned step is to gather all the character stats at level 99 for now. I’ll have complete pictures for them all.

2. Next step after is to get pictures of each unique spell and ability in the game, and give a detailed description of them all. 

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20200910024834_1.thumb.jpg.52e0e29e687d99683766ff55606e4e80.jpg

Finally freaking got this. Took forever to do, but sub six minutes with Terry solo. Possible to push it lower with less damage incurred. Sub five is possible. Finally have confirmation Terry has the most DPS of any sword user.

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20200915023527_1.thumb.jpg.e2c1fba7fd0d249addcfd533b3f2c306.jpg

So I keep managing to push Psaro's damage output more and more versus Estark Extreme. This is now my second best time versus him. Even beating out my no damage run with Teresa as a martial artist. I got it on stream as well. I'll include it with a time stamp below in case you guys want to get an understanding for how I use Psaro here.

 

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So for post #101, I got two things:

1. Guide will be started up this Monday. Get hype.

2. A gift from me to you:

This is extremely class, weapon, and skill specific, but they are two of the best in the game at what they do. So as a gladiator, with axe, you can skip the normally slow start up of Blind Man's Biff provided you do an offensive attack first. You can do this out of Crackerwhack and its variants, Scrap Mettle, etc. You can skip the INSANELY SLOW start up of Omniheal if you do an offensive skill first as well.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Couple updates:

1. Guide is coming along slowly, but surely. I'm trying to implement .mp4 files for each character to make viewing easier as it covers everything, and you can pause at any point to view the stats and spells/abilities available. Only have some characters done for right now.

2. I decided to look over the old sage vs. mage points I made some time ago. Boy was I wrong lol. Mage is very crippling to use. Sage outclasses mage across the board in stats, even when comparing its best weapon: heavy wand. The build's I have for this maximize spell and critical damage exponentially for both, but mage noticeably has lower magical might at 384 compared to sage's 424. That's a staggering 40 points higher. While mage can dole out more punishment with a proper set up, it requires a lot of support or space to get going, which just isn't always there. The extra lack of +10 on dodge and the extra loss of 105 HP, plus defense, means you're going to be crippled very defensively. Even if you shove on the Dark Orb to match sage's dodge ability, you're at like -40 defense compared to sage. Putting on a Metal King Orb still doesn't match that compared to a sage, and you lose out on extra safety without the Dark Orb boost. I think the extra bulk, utility with weapon variety, and access to the almighty Kazammle just put a damper on the little niche mage could muster. It's a much more consistent class. Would easily recommend any day over mage now. Even for support.

 

Also whoa. Major site changes. Looks sexy, Woodus. I dig it. :thumbsup:

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Been a while since last post. Got some tidbits of new info that a lot of you might like for axe and priest users.

So with some experimentation, I've got a lot of fantastic results with the priest vocations offensively using its best weapon: spear. I started experimenting more in depth with the Maulstrom line of abilities and another: Lightning Conductor. Lightning Conductor is very, very good. To the point I wouldn't recommend the Maulstrom line anymore for crowd options. Lightning Conductor is a very large, wide hitbox that surrounds your character. The damage on it is pretty close to Thunder Thrust fully charged. That's fantastic for damage output. Especially considering at endgame, priest is running much less attack than other physical move sets for what it's doing. A lot of spear's game plan really seems to revolve around Thunder Thrust and Lightning Conductor for its offensive presence on priests. This isn't too terrible. I've labbed it out versus Estark Extreme, Dragonlord (base version since his HP is much more reasonable than the other incarnations), and some other tougher bosses such the veteran Knight Aberrant. It definitely gets the job done. If you have enough time, you can even immediately cancel Thunder Thrust into a Lightning Conductor for more damage. And since it's an electric based attack, it has the added bonus of opening up things like Uberkilling Machines for chances to attack their weak points.

So good news for axe. Desdemona is a beast. Her Red Mist perk is practically mandatory for her I think. This ability is such a game changer I never could have predicted the impact it would have on her offense. First I should point out a few things: this does increase attack, so it's effectively a Muster Strength with the added benefit of making Hatchet Man available as early as the fourth hit versus the tenth hit without it. That's less than half the required hits of Rampage to pull it off. Red Mist also increases base swing rate before the actual swing rate increases during Rampage (second hit versus eighth without Rampage). And once you get the ability to dodge cancel out of Rampage, well, there's literally no reason to ever use the horrible and unsafe attack string on it ever again. To compound things a bit more, Strength Rings and Catholicon Rings do increase the duration of Red Mist's longevity and offense bonuses. Slap on a Catholicon Ring that's maxed out and you're getting essentially 200% the duration.

However there's a few more bonuses to consider. Desdemona naturally gets the ability in her skill tree to extend the effects of Kabuff/Oomph, and she gets a 10% boost to Oomph related effects, which translates over to Red Mist. So if you throw on a endgame maxed Catholicon Ring, plus Strength Ring, you're looking at 225% the duration Red Mist is active, and a 60% offense increase. Throw on a maxed out Champion's Choker for an extra +40 attack, and she will be causing havoc. Especially considering she can debuff defense and agility with Scrap Mettle, but because her standard kit becomes so much better with Red Mist active, and a lot of her offense with come from it, she will not be using MP like crazy. Meaning she sports a solid base kit, and will continuously have a healthy amount of MP for team support. This is really good because she gets the debuffs from Scrap Mettle, and she gets access to the amazing Heart Breaker which lets her stun larger enemies guaranteed. This doesn't rectify her terrible aerials, but her ground game becomes so much better, which is much more important because all your actions like dodging and using abilities are only usable on the ground (minus Maya but she's the sole exception in that regard).

As for the other best axe user, Yangus, I've got some news on him. I feel like Yangus doesn't have the offensive presence of Desdemona in a lot of the situations Red Mist will let her become a monster. Yangus' attacks are much slower compared to her on Red Mist, and he requires charging a lot of his attacks to really show his single hit damage values, and how much they shine. Yangus has amazing damage off full charge attacks, but they require a lot of time to charge. Yangus' Turbocharger ability from DQ Heroes 1 carries over, though I don't think they ever mention this in the game. Basically the more you charge his attacks, the quicker the following charges happen. So if I do his left swing and charge it, then charge his right swing, the right swing will charge and reach its following charge levels faster. Yangus really shines when he has ample opportunity to do this.

Despite all this, Yangus' DPS seems really slow due to the charge requirements, despite the damage of his hits being rather high. However he seems passable in this regard. Even on superbosses since he can debuff with Helm Splitter, and act as a paladin of sorts with Whistle and Defending Champion. And speaking of a paladin, this is where Yangus truly shines: his defensive capabilities. Yangus has an incredibly long reaching dodge with a +15 dodge, meaning it's pretty normal, or average for its invincibility frames. The i-frames end before his dodge completes though, but it's usually never a problem. I-frames start even before he shoulder barges forward, too. He also has access to the best defensive option in the game with Defending Champion. It's just amazing how strong this tool is. Any physical attack damage from Estark Extreme or other superbosses is just nullified from my Yangus. Literally anything except Estark's C-c-cold Breath or his Kafrizzle with damage Yangus. Defending Champion cuts damage from spells, breath based damage, and the like by about 50%. It's basically a 360 degree block that nullifies all physical/ability based damage, and from spells and breath based abilities by 50%. And you can cancel into this at any point from his attacks. It only costs 5 MP, and you can cancel at any point with the press of an attack button, though your MP does not recover while you're using Defending Champion. This is just like when you're in a state of super high tension.

Aside from his defensive options, Yangus has access to the best Parallax line. His speed from the original DQ Heroes remains intact, meaning his Parallax is the fastest in the game for any version, and his sky high attack means he has one of the most damaging, too. So he has a fantastic projectile. It's hard to say who's the better axe user, but overall I'd probably go with Desdemona due her versatility and offense. Not to discount Yangus, but I'll need to put him more into practice to reach a better conclusion.

Anyways that's it for this write up. Will work on another probably more this week.

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Actually I did forget one character: Torneko. I love using him, and I legitimately think he's one of the best characters in the game in practically every aspect. So Torneko literally has any answer for any situation. He can be a healer with his Sage's Stone (though it doesn't have the level of healing Multiheal does, but it costs a staggering 12 MP less), cure status effects with Wonderwand for the whole party, and even support the crew by putting enemies to sleep with Dream Dagger which is huge. The sleep status effect is rare for any character, and the effect leaves larger enemies helpless for a while. This is better than just stunning them like Heart Breaker does. Only four characters get access to sleep options, and those other three are all bow users: Bianca and Lazarel/Teresa as sages using bows. None of them are melee users who have higher DPS, meaning Torneko has a massive advantage here.

His defensive options are really good. His dodge is at +21, meaning 21 frames of invincibility, and his is the quick shoulder charge meaning his dodge also does damage. Torneko also packs the highest HP stat at 590 with a decent bulk of 315 at endgame with a Metal King Orb. He's not as tanky as Carver, who has ten less HP, but also much higher defense. Still, Torneko is really beefy, and would survive attacks that would normally defeat most of the cast instantly like the charge attack from Fractos Unfettered, or getting struck by Dread Dragonlord's flame pillars after he roars.

Offensively most of Torneko's damage comes from two things: Assassin's Dagger and his Flail of Destruction (which I'll call the Destructiball from here on out). Both of these moves flow and cancel into one another insanely well even with his charging animation. Assassin's Dagger has a very high damage output, though not as high as his Destructiball, but costs 5 less MP to use (8 MP required). Meaning it's very cost effective even at endgame when his standard max MP is 115.  Destructiball is one of the more damaging abilities in the game, and really shines in damage output in super high tension with some ability buffs. Torneko's DPS is incredible in super high tension. Probably among the best in the game. Constantly swapping between Destructiball and Assassin's Dagger on the fly with very little cooldown between the two is amazing. Torneko does have the worst coup de grace because of the end lag. He cannot act and exploit the time frame given to him for more damage. He has to get up from being trampled by the thugs, and then say "How'd you like that, huh?".

His attack string and charge aren't terrible either, though charge should NOT be used for single target damage against larger enemies. It is very mobile, and the only thing you can't do out of it directly is dodge, but it becomes very easy to lose control and steer him off the target. Plus its damage is not very high per hit. Instead rely on his attack string or his C3 (the roundabout with his abacus). His second and third hits of attack string do a lot of damage, more than most attack strings actually, and the roundabout with his C3 does comparable damage. Both are good for single target damage in between using his abilities. Charge should really only be used for mobility with your weapon drawn, or taking down weaker enemies like Dark Skeletons. For his crowd control, Torneko has the Chain Sickle line of abilities, though I'd advise against it since it is very weak, and takes time to charge. You're better off using his limited four slots for abilities to further his damage output and support. I typically run Dream Dagger, Destructiball, Assassin's Dagger, and Sage's Stone for both support and to maximize his offense.

That's really it for Torneko. I love using him. Koei Tecmo really did a fantastic job pulling off his merchant characteristics. He's basically the weapon master of this game with everything he uses, and fulfills so many roles so well, with fantastic defense and offensive capabilities, that I'd really recommend using him in your crews quite a lot.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a grasp on Torneko's DPS now. I am able to easily, and consistently, get below five minutes with him on Estark Extreme. His DPS is huge. He definitely is a power character.

Side note, anyone want anything in particular labbed out?

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