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AzureZoa

Documenting how spells and abilities work. Also character changes from DQ Heroes 1 to DQ Heroes 2.

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So something minor, but labbed out the amount of time for C4 to come out for each sword/shield user. Terry actually does not have the slowest C4. They all appear to come out at the same time, even fully charged.

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Posted (edited)

Okay, so I found out some new things yesterday, and some old things I have forgotten to share.

-So first thing is Quickfire Caster. This move costs some MP to use, and then consumes the same amount of MP required to cast these spells like normal. So if I use Uber Quickfire Caster, my tier three spells will be treated as "Quickfire versions" of it, come out instantly, and consume the same amount of MP to cast. However, there is one major drawback: spell damage is nerfed by 20-25%. So you're just throwing out spells for extra cost, and less damage. Spells really need all the damage they can get considering their max damage is around the 1,000-,1200 damage range for most. So not something I recommend. You're better off going with the mage class, with a heavy wand, and use Arcane Echo because it functions exactly like Twocus Pocus in DQIX. You cast double the spells for the same MP cost with no damage reduction.

-Psaro has a unique move at the end of his C3 where he does a jumping axe kick into the ground. As soon as he lands and shatters the ground, you can press Y (for Xbox One controller reference), and he will fire off small dark darts. They don't do damage, but each one restores one MP.

Last part pertains to Terry:

I believe Terry is fundamentally the best sword/shield user. First let's cover the negatives. Terry does not gain tension off his rebuttals. He is the only character who can perfect block that suffers from this unique nerf. Also his attack power is comparable to the warrior vocation, which is pretty mediocre. So his damage output compared to Luceus, Aurora, Lazarel, and Teresa as gladiators is pretty nerfed for his combo attacks. Terry's normal combo attacks aren't as useful as the rest of the characters. Even Lazarel and Teresa's C3 thrust is better than Terry's Cross Current C3 because of the protection it provides. Also his Flip Chop is very bad. It can be hard to control, but even if you do, the move is weak multi-hit option, and the hitboxes are very tiny, meaning overall it is meant to be a one on one move, and because of these properties, it is terrible for killing smaller groups of enemies. And you're also better of using anything else for higher DPS. Terry cannot even stun larger monsters like Power Cut can for the rest of the characters. He also lacks the all important Flame Slash variant for the DPS the sword/shield move set relies so much on. So overall his damage output compared to them all is fairly lackluster for his normal kit.

Now let's get to the positives. Terry is an extremely self-sustaining character. He has Miracle Slash, which lets him heal like the gladiator vocation, and he has Falcon Slash like the claws move set, letting him heal much more due to the multiple hitboxes. Falcon Slash lasts for roughly 15 seconds, and also increases his damage output, so there's a remedy to help him out. And on top of this, he has the most consistent, and best, MP restoration move in the game with his C4 (Brain Drain). Since Terry relies on a lot on his MP, having an ability to restore 21-25 MP at a time is huge. Terry also has a larger MP pool than any other sword user! His sits at a respectable 120 MP. And on top of this, Terry has a really good defense stat that even outshines Luceus and Aurora. He has the best defense stat of any sword/shield user. Plus he can use most shields in the game. I believe some are exclusive to him like the Zenithian/Erdrick equipment are exclusive to Lazarel/Teresa. But he can use the Metal King Shield, which offers the highest blocking stat of any shield in the game.

Aside from this, Terry's damage output, with the right combination of abilities, can outshine any other sword/shield user. Falcon Slash combined with Uber Cutting Edge can significantly outperform Flame Slash and Frost Slash from the other sword/shield users. Even Blind Man's Biff from the gladiator vocation that Lazarel and Teresa can access. This is very MP heavy, but Terry can sustain it even on superbosses thanks to Brain Drain and his large MP pool. Cutting Edge variants also give Terry one of the most powerful options for a sword/shield user, and he can access a somewhat worse version of the Divide and Conquer/Blind Man's Biff tactic used by gladiator with claws. Still, it has amazing damage output overall. Also his Lightning Strike allows him to gain access to a high damage, far reaching projectile that travels farther than anything else the other sword/shield users can provide, and if it criticals one enemy, the whole move will critical everything else hit by it. It also does more damage than Inferno Slash/Cold Fission from the gladiator class.

Terry also gained a much stronger final hit of his attack string no other sword/shield user has access to. He's also the only one able to manually restore MP. So Terry is the only character who can manually restore MP and HP aside from sage using heavy wand, and since he is a melee user, he is inherently better at DPS as a result. Terry also has access to other options, like Kaclang, but they're mostly situational. You'll find that Terry's best options consist of Miracle Slash, Cutting Edge and its variants, Lightning Strike, and Falcon Slash to cover all options. Kaclang is too situational, and locks you in place unable to do anything, which limits its use even more. You're better off using your mobility to get through most everything the game throws at you. The only things it can really offer, are a counter to certain moves, like Fractos Unfettered's meteor move. Mercurial Thrust is weak, but can be used as a form of quick slash to get in, though this is practically useless. Double Edged Slash consumes a lot of HP the higher yours is, and less the lower your HP is, but it is soundly beaten out in damage by Super Cutting Edge, so no point in wasting a handful less MP but much more HP for a weaker attack.

Well that's it for the write up for now. Back to the lab again.

Edited by AzureZoa

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On 7/30/2020 at 9:31 PM, AzureZoa said:

Nope. My mind’s a steel trap.

Apparently :D

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, cprmauldin said:

Apparently :D

You bet. It doesn’t let go of important information lol. 
 

Also I learned some things for the Japanese exclusive Switch ports for DQ Heroes 1 and 2. Aside from knowing Ragnar McRyan is in there, there’s also exclusive costumes based on the Prince of Midenhall for Lazarel and Teresa. Plus an additional boss fight that pits you against Malroth is in the game. I wish we got a localization of this. 😕

Guess I’ll have to import a copy. Not missing out on this content. This’ll be my first ever imported game. Plus they apparently balanced the game a bit better compared to the initial releases of  both games. So I’m pretty excited to see what is different. Hopefully they balanced enemy HP a bit better. Dread Dragonlord is way too terrible with that much HP. 

Edited by AzureZoa
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Posted (edited)

Well I got it at a pretty good price actually. Shipping was nuts, but got that actual game at a really good price. I hate scalpers. I'll be making it a priority to play through the game and get it done ASAP. I want to see what all has changed, and I'll be posting information on Malroth as soon as I come to him of course.

Edited by AzureZoa
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I have finally figured out how Psaro's Zam line of spells track targets. I had the perfect testing ground for it, too. It goes after targets with a lower HP total. So even if you're in front of an enemy, like say three feet, and there's another target 30 feet away, it will go after the one 30 feet away with less HP.

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And finally, after some grueling work with Estark, I've figured out how the magic orbs work for heavy wand.

Uncharged variants function exactly like the bow. They're shot repeatedly and track your targets automatically. However, since these orbs have low damage ranges due to low attack, they're not as useful as bow.

The charged variants function much like Inferno Slash or Sword Dance. First, I should explain the minimum number of orbs you can fire off from a charge is three. Even if you release it at the earliest possible timing, it will always conjure a third orb to fire at a target. Second, you can have up to 11 of these orbs out at a time. They all have their own hitboxes, so say if all 11 hit on completely separate frames, on one large target, all 11 will hit and do damage. However, there's a catch: this is practically impossible, but for good reason. If two or more orbs hit a target at the exact same time, their damage will increase, and function like the other two skills: depending on the amount of hits that connect, it will hit for one strike with higher damage. So if two orbs hit on the same frame, as a hypothetical, it will do 286 damage to Estark in a single hitbox. What if four hit at the same time? 542 in one single hitbox as another hypothetical.

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Guess I’ll post some insight into spell only builds: don’t bother lol. 
 

I’ve been running rounds on Estark Extreme mostly since he’s the best guy to gauge a lot of a character’s strengths. Even with maxed out gear that gives extra 25% spell damage, 35% critical spell rate, and an extra 9% or so to critical spells, with heavy wand sage no less, I was really running out of MP at times to do much of anything to him. The problem is melee users just inherently have higher DPS since they can keep on attacking without having to repeatedly charge spells for max damage. I was even running a maxed Sorcerer’s Ring that put Lazarel’s MP over 250. I was still running out of MP a bit more into half the fight. It’s definitely better for non-boss enemies. 

Plus I wish to say a couple things about spear, staff, and axe.
 

-Spear is actually okay. So long as you learn to dodge after your active attack frames, you will have access to your amazing normal roll dodges. The back hops on spear are extremely good as well. So there are workarounds, but it requires some practice of knowing when to use what attack. Overall its offensive kit with spells or abilities is solid, and its aerials do a fair amount of damage. Put it in the hands of a gladiator, and you will get the best results with their +20 dodge ability, and higher attack stat to really bring out its damage. Its abilities are all pretty decent, too. Especially access to Multiheal as a priest.
 

-Axe is the polar opposite. Its aerials are absolutely terrible. Its attack string is terrible. And Rampage without access to Red Mist makes it worse. It relies too much on its abilities to shine, which all are really, really good. But when you’re too reliant on limited resources over a long fight, you’ll notice the drain. Its attack string is unsafe during two hits of it where you can’t dodge out of it, due to being in midair, and it has just normal damage for an attack string I believe. Rampage completely outshines it when you can dodge out of it. If you try to hit with the strong aerial, the first hit knocks targets away, so you cannot follow up with the slam. Plus the slam has a terrible hitbox and tends to miss a lot. I’d say this weapon is just plain bottom tier overall like wand. Desdemona can help bring out some of its potential with Red Mist to increase her attack, and have Hatchet Man ready as early as the fourth hit instead of the tenth. Yangus however, while slow, is undoubtedly the best axe user. He packs power with all his moves being able to be charged, has access to the fastest Parallax variants in the game, a weirdly timed, but very long dodge, and access to some paladin-esque traits. Whistle attracts their attention, and he can then activate Defending Champion. DC is so busted that most physical attacks will not even scratch Yangus, and it just comes with a measly cost of 5 MP, and reduces damage from breath and spell based damage exponentially. Even Estark’s strongest abilities when tensed up, or his sleep explosions, will not harm Yangus while DC is up. And you can cancel at any point with the attack button. 
 

-Staff is extremely mediocre. All of its unique abilities are crowd focused with lots of lag locking you in place. Deliverance, Royal Wrath/Nature’s Fury, Crushed Ice, Furious Flurry, or even doing Whirly Burly. Its few solo target focused moves, like Crushed Ice, take too long to do and/or lock you in place unable to do anything until it’s over with. Even getting access to Omniheal as a sage isn’t worth it. It costs 90 MP to use, and consumes so much time to activate, that I don’t believe it is really worth using. Staff seems like another below average tier weapon class given its lack of useful single damage output options. Even spear beats its out. 
 

As for some of the best move sets in the game, I can definitely say Psaro is likely candidate for the best. Carver is up there as well. Even beating out claws/Alena in DPS with Divide and Conquer active (just so long as Blind Man’s Biff isn’t being spammed of course lol). Sword and shield are amazing all around. I keep finding myself coming to sword and shield regardless of character because it just has everything you’d look for in a move set. Twin Swords in the hands of a gladiator are fantastic, too, but I wouldn’t know where to place them because they noticeably lack some of the stuff that sword and shield have as a gladiator, while also sharing quite a few things like Cold Fission/Inferno Slash. It’s missing the extremely important perfect block, and its moves seem to be slower due to how the attack string forces you into two hits, whereas sword hits once, making its attack string faster overall. 

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So some good news for players who want to 100% this game: most everything you get during your first playthrough will remain intact. This includes levels, skill points, etc. Other things include quest percentage, enemy percentage, etc. Your battle records will remain the same. Your accolades will still be intact with the accolade lady as well. The knight who gives you the warrior’s ring can be talked to repeatedly to get all the other items he gives you again. Your monster kill count remains intact. Mini medal count remains intact. Also once you buy just one item from Maxie Malone, the platypunk mini medal guy, he’ll give you everything you had previously from the prior playthrough. So spending one mini medal will give you everything you had previously from him if you gave him enough mini medals. This includes things like the Dragovian Orb and Gaia Orb. 
 

Other things that remain intact are you can buy any weapon/orb from the merchants in Accordia if you filled those quests in your prior playthrough. You just need the right character to join if you want something character specific, like Terry’s specific swords, or Maya’s fans. Orbs or items you got from normal chests will remain intact. However, you will need to complete the thief quest again to get the Thief’s Key to open chests that contain exclusive items like the Zenithian items. 
 

You will need to redo quests for items like the Gringham whip or Erdrick items. You can swap the weapon models with the Float-o-Copier in Erinn’s inn as well. So if you don’t have the Hero’s Spear anymore, but you did in a prior playthrough, you can still change a spear to look like the Hero’s Spear. The Metal King gear you get from Maxie Malone do NOT remain in your inventory. I thought they would considering they’re tied to mini medals only, but no, you have to buy it all again. Make sure to save your mini medals instead of cashing them in on your first playthrough. Your proficiency remains intact. Same for any party powers, skills, etc. 
 

This whole chunk of info remains the same if you swap your primary character as well. I switched from Lazarel to Teresa for this playthrough (honestly Lazarel’s personality gets on my nerves), and all that remained intact. I don’t know if your wanted enemy count remains the same, but it should considering it is tied to an accolade. I’ll check tonight and see. 
 

Also aside from that, it looks like the warrior class cannot use the Rebuttal perk for perfect parrying. It looks to be gladiator exclusive. I’ll check tonight and see. If so, that’s a massive nerf right there. 

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Hey, Woodus, what kind of finalized guide would meet the site’s standards? I’m still going to be pumping out a lot of stuff info for a while, but wanted to know how I should format everything, and if it should be done in a specific program like Microsoft Word/Excel or something. The only places I’ve ever submitted guides to were reddit (I told them to take my work down though), and GameFAQs. Both were really particular about how the guides were supposed to be done.

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Hey, Woodus, what kind of finalized guide would meet the site’s standards? I’m still going to be pumping out a lot of stuff info for a while, but wanted to know how I should format everything, and if it should be done in a specific program like Microsoft Word/Excel or something. The only places I’ve ever submitted guides to were reddit (I told them to take my work down though), and GameFAQs. Both were really particular about how the guides were supposed to be done.

@Woodus

 

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Doesn't have to be complete, I can always update as you go.

I'm not overly particular one the format, just whatever works to get the info out there.

If Word/Google Docs/OpenOffice is best for you to work in I can dump it out to HTML or convert it to a PDF to put on the site as both should be indexable by search engines. :thumbsup:

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Posted (edited)

Alright. Thanks, Woodus. Sounds good. 

My imported copy of DQ Heroes 1 and 2 arrived. I’ll be starting it out tonight. Hopefully it won’t take forever to reach Malroth. I’ll be posting videos and stuff about Ragnar and Malroth as much as I can. I’ll also leave a review about how the game performs on Switch as well.

Edited by AzureZoa
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Before I forget, I should include other things that are saved and not saved when starting a new file.

-Map progression is retained. By that I mean everything you filled in on the map remains intact. So if you’ve ran to every location and filled out the maps completely, all will remain filled.

-Your progression for killing wanted enemies remains intact. 
 

-Obviously chests will need to be re-opened.

-You will need to open all doors, complete quests to clear landslides, etc., through quests again.

-You will need to reactivate all Zoomstones again.

-You will need specific characters to reopen locations again.

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20200818010058_1.thumb.jpg.356f5081ce1b8eeb10622a8b34d7ad67.jpgI

I keep saying it, but Psaro definitely has the highest, consistent DPS. Sub four is possible.

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Disregard the above post. The goal has been accomplished.

20200818025658_1.thumb.jpg.30c17ea1a229991eb5d821c892d45de3.jpg

Sub four minutes solo with Psaro vs Estark Extreme is possible. I have done it. Only gladiator with claws and Psaro are the two characters I know of capable of this. I feel extremely happy to have finally done this. WOOT.

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Posted (edited)

Before I forget, I tested the ability Arcane Echo last night. It works like Twocus Pocus in DQ9, but there is a noticeable nerf...the second spell does 50% damage. Though at no extra cost. So with it you can sling an extra 50% damage, plus the hitboxes spells provide, for a while at an extra 15 MP spent. And you can dodge out of Arcane Echo very quickly, mean it is safe to commit to. 
 

So versus Quickfire Caster, it is slower, but Quickfire Caster reduces your spell damage to 70-75% of what one actually does, and you waste MP for each one cast. Arcane Echo is the opposite. No extra MP consumed, but the second spell only does 50% damage, and you have to charge to the different tiers.

Honestly the clear winner here to me is Arcane Echo. The drawbacks and MP consumption are nowhere as bad as Quickfire Caster.

Edited by AzureZoa

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I just noticed...

 

Dragonlord in this game doesn’t look like his iconic self...

 

He looks like the Dragovian Lord’s Ultimate Dragon form...

 

WHY KOEI TECMO? WHY!?

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20200822211651_1.thumb.jpg.131fa11551b88abdb2961c6e12bd2115.jpg20200822032424_1.thumb.jpg.9bd4958ab1fdd4124135c727df398ff3.jpg

So two goals have been hit, and they're extremely hard to go lower. Finally hit sub three minutes solo against Estark Extreme with the gladiator and claws. Other picture is solo priest vs him. Shaved off somewhere around three minutes last time I fought him like this. It gave me some good insight into spear.

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11 hours ago, AzureZoa said:

20200822211651_1.thumb.jpg.131fa11551b88abdb2961c6e12bd2115.jpg20200822032424_1.thumb.jpg.9bd4958ab1fdd4124135c727df398ff3.jpg

So two goals have been hit, and they're extremely hard to go lower. Finally hit sub three minutes solo against Estark Extreme with the gladiator and claws. Other picture is solo priest vs him. Shaved off somewhere around three minutes last time I fought him like this. It gave me some good insight into spear.

What insight would that be? I remember always trying to maximize my output with the spear and I never felt like I was quite getting there. 

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6 hours ago, cprmauldin said:

What insight would that be? I remember always trying to maximize my output with the spear and I never felt like I was quite getting there. 

Basically spear is like the baseline of usability for offense. If I were to rank a move set's offensive capabilities, anything lower than spear wouldn't be passable. That's the best way I can describe it.

Pros:

-Fantastic reach, especially off a Thunder Thrust

-Thunder Thrust is extremely strong and travels a far distance. Also ignores blocking

-Has tools for crowds and single targets, which makes the move set versatile

-Chaining back hops is probably the single best dodge in the game minus the +36 invincibility twin swords on gladiator have : P

-In the priest vocation you get access to the all important Multiheal while having an okay offensive weapon

-Strong aerials

-Best weapon a priest can use

Negatives:

-The dodges that replace your normal ones out of using an attack/spell/ability are all worse and much more committal than the rolling dodge minus back hops

-Very low damage ranges all around on grounded attacks, which means that its DPS is low, and especially noticeable on superbosses where you basically have to stick with Thunder Thrust only

-Even Blind Man's Biff can't save the damage output on this thing in the gladiator vocation. I've tried and it just doesn't work on much more powerful enemies

 

So really anything like wand or axe I just wouldn't recommend over spear. Even on the better axe users like Desdemona or Yangus, they make have better DPS with their awesome abilities, or per hit for Yangus' case, but they lack the better standard kit outside of spells/abilities that spear has. And even then, spear has some pretty decent abilities overall as a gladiator for offense, or support for priest.

 

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19 hours ago, AzureZoa said:

Basically spear is like the baseline of usability for offense. If I were to rank a move set's offensive capabilities, anything lower than spear wouldn't be passable. That's the best way I can describe it.

Pros:

-Fantastic reach, especially off a Thunder Thrust

-Thunder Thrust is extremely strong and travels a far distance. Also ignores blocking

-Has tools for crowds and single targets, which makes the move set versatile

-Chaining back hops is probably the single best dodge in the game minus the +36 invincibility twin swords on gladiator have : P

-In the priest vocation you get access to the all important Multiheal while having an okay offensive weapon

-Strong aerials

-Best weapon a priest can use

Negatives:

-The dodges that replace your normal ones out of using an attack/spell/ability are all worse and much more committal than the rolling dodge minus back hops

-Very low damage ranges all around on grounded attacks, which means that its DPS is low, and especially noticeable on superbosses where you basically have to stick with Thunder Thrust only

-Even Blind Man's Biff can't save the damage output on this thing in the gladiator vocation. I've tried and it just doesn't work on much more powerful enemies

 

So really anything like wand or axe I just wouldn't recommend over spear. Even on the better axe users like Desdemona or Yangus, they make have better DPS with their awesome abilities, or per hit for Yangus' case, but they lack the better standard kit outside of spells/abilities that spear has. And even then, spear has some pretty decent abilities overall as a gladiator for offense, or support for priest.

 

Awesome, thanks for that eval. 

 

I figured spears were the better option, but I was never able to do a full analysis the way you did. I've got a buddy just getting into the Heroes games so I'll be able to impart some wisdom upon him thanks to you :) 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, cprmauldin said:

Awesome, thanks for that eval. 

 

I figured spears were the better option, but I was never able to do a full analysis the way you did. I've got a buddy just getting into the Heroes games so I'll be able to impart some wisdom upon him thanks to you :) 

You’re welcome. I’m just trying to learn this game, and share what I’m learning. I’m a firm believer in knowledge is power, and I share what I enjoy doing. So far I believe spear is passable on practically every normal enemy, and some of the stronger enemies like Pazuzu, Belial, Wight King, with it losing more efficiency on bosses like Estark, Dragonlord, Fractos, etc. Essentially the big bads, superbosses, or enemies with simply too much HP. I don’t think most enemy health is unreasonable for spear to deal with, even for an endgame priest or Kiryl. 
 

I think Uber Maulstrom is an absolute must on this set because it really turns up its zoning potential, clears crowds really well, and you can instantly go into a Maulstrom right after a Thunder Thrust. Lightning Conductor is also solid. Especially for stunning machine enemies. Chain Lightning is awful though. The damage ranges per hit are nothing special, locks you in place, and only the final hit does decent damage. For priestess (Teresa is my primary go to for this vocation), I run Kabuff, Multiheal, Reheal line, and Maulstrom line. Maulstrom is such a game changer for offense that it’s helped a bunch for her offensive pressure. 
 

For gladiator I tend to run the usual skills like Hurt Convertor, Blind Man’s Biff, and Maulstrom. The last skill just depends on the situation, but this is generally enough to get everything done. Gladiator has a natural +20 dodge, which really works off the back hops. Priest on the other hand has the worst dodge alongside the likes of mage at a mere +5. So what I do is run the Dark Orb on Teresa or Kiryl to give them an extra +10 frames for invincibility. Otherwise the back hop is really bad for escaping pressure. It costs some defense, but their defense stat is still enough for endgame, and they can cast Kabuff to remedy it no problem. 

Edited by AzureZoa

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Posted (edited)

Couple things about the game from the other day:

-Managed to solo the Fractos fights (both versions) finally, and picked up something super important about base form Fractos: he can actually be stunned. This is HUGE. This means being able to interrupt his spell casts, and keep his BS down to a minimum makes the fight much more bearable. Characters like Psaro, Desdemona with Heart Breaker, Luceus, Aurora, or even the warrior vocation with Power Cut will be invaluable in keeping him in check. Luceus might be the hardest counter to Fractos actually. He has Bounce to reflect all his spells, and Power Cut is his C3, which means it doesn’t cost any MP to do. 
 

-It is possible for mage to be extremely deadly with 100% critical casts. When using Ring of Ruin, with enough boosting items, I was getting 100% critical casts. My build was an uber ace of spoils and monocle that gave an extra 35% critical chance to spells. Combine this with Arcane Echo, and you’re flinging double spells that cumulatively deal 300% damage. My Kacrack damage (Kacrack has two hitboxes on it, not used with Arcane Echo), between both hits, was doing over 3K. I was leveling endgame enemies in groups. 
 

-There’s another OP DPS build thanks to martial artist lol. With claws it gets access to Muster Strength and Divide and Conquer. It doesn’t get access to something ridiculous like Blind Man’s Biff, but Multifists deal tremendous damage with this set up. A casual run against Estark Extreme with Teresa only yielded a time of 3 minutes, 31 seconds. This still beats my Psaro run. There’s plenty of time that can be shaved off there. Sub three minutes is possible I believe. However it requires more MP to start up, six more to be precise, but after that Multifists will consume less MP over time, giving you more uses out of it than gladiator with Blind Man’s Biff spam. Especially with martial artist having like ten more MP as well. Plus it has built in healing like gladiator with Meditation, though I think Hurt Convertor is still better since you can go ham and recover more HP than Meditation will ever give. Regardless, martial artist has one of the best DPS in the game against bosses. 

Edited by AzureZoa

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