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Documenting how spells and abilities work. Also character changes from DQ Heroes 1 to DQ Heroes 2.


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I'm just documenting all these things I've been testing to get an understanding of both games better. If anyone wants to read it and understand it as well, then this can help you as well. I'll be slowly updating this over time as compiling everything in one go would probably take hours.

 

Spells:

There are nine offensive spell types in the game: Zap, Zam, Frizz, Crack, Sizz, Woosh, Rubblerouser, Whack, and Bang. All spells, minus the Whack line, can charge up to tier three. Different tiers do different damage and have different effects.

Frizz-based:

Frizz: Flings a small fireball forward. If used with Maribel's boomerang catch, she will fling forth a few fireballs in a wide arch at the same MP cost as one regular Frizz.

Frizzle: Tier two charge. Does more damage. Cannot be used with Maribel's catch.

Kafrizz: Strongest tier spell. Has two hitboxes. One that does an initial hit, followed by a much stronger hit from the pillar of flame itself. Cannot be used with Maribel's catch.

Note: Any variation of Frizz will put Bianca into an aerial state. Maribel's Kafrizz has a slower cast time due to twirling around twice. Frizz spells also auto track when cast.

Crack-based:

Crack: Fires three ice projectiles forward.

Crackle: Summons a large segment of sharp ice directly in front of your character.

Kacrack: Summons a large segment of sharp ice like Crackle, but allows you to aim where you can place the spell. Has two hitboxes. One initial hit when the ice forms, and the other after it shatters.

Note: Any variation has a chance to freeze targets.

Woosh-based:

Woosh: Summons a tiny tornado forward.

Swoosh: Summons two, larger tornadoes for more coverage.

Kaswoosh: Summons three, much larger tornadoes that linger for a while.

Note: Combining Isla's Firebird Throw with any variation of Woosh will creating flaming tornadoes that do more damage. Any variation of Woosh also appears to auto track. They can hit multiple times.

Zam-based:

Zam: Fires five ethereal balls that auto track a target. This variation is unchanged for Lazarel and Teresa as sages, and the same is for Psaro. If Psaro has Liberation activated, he fires ten balls instead.

Zammle: Exclusive to Lazarel and Teresa as sages. It functions exactly like Kazam in DQ Heroes 1. Fires a dark explosion directly in front of them. Can only hit one target once.

Kazam: Exclusive to Psaro. Psaro fires off a dark orb that auto tracks a target, pulls enemies in, then explodes with the same graphical effect as Zammle. Hits each target once. If enhanced through Liberation, two orbs will be fired that gather enemies in, and both will explode. Will hit each captured target twice.

Kazammle: If used by Lazarel or Teresa, will function exactly like in DQ Heroes 1. Fires off a large, dark explosion in front of them with considerable range. Psaro's Kazammle will auto track just like Kazam, pull targets in, then explode. If used with Liberation, a much more powerful Kazammle, with a different graphical effect will play out, and deals 1,000 more damage.

Note: Kazammle ignores blocking and will stun any larger boss that is not a dungeon master or wanted creatures.

Zap-based:

Zap: Fires off a small lightning bolt in front of you.

Zapple: Fires a larger lightning bolt in front of you.

Kazap: Fires off multiple lightning strikes a distance in front of you, so spacing this is advised for best effect.

Note: Any variation of Zap will stun machine based monsters.

 

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Sure thing. It’d be nice to have this somewhere as an extra resource. 

So for post #101, I got two things: 1. Guide will be started up this Monday. Get hype. 2. A gift from me to you: This is extremely class, weapon, and skill specific, but they

Notes about some abilities and spells: Lots of spells and abilities that rely on multiple hits, such as Rain of Pain, will only hit a target once. So if you try to use Rain of Pain on Estark, onl

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Whack-based:

Whack: Exclusive to Kiryl. Fires off one dark orb capable of ending an enemy's life, but has a high rate of failure.

Thwack: Exclusive to Kiryl as well. Compared to DQ Heroes 1, this fires off many more orbs for a total of nine.

Note: Thwack cannot hit a target more than once.

Sizz-based:

Sizz; Fires forth a straight line of flame.

Sizzle: Fires a single line of flame that angles a few times.

Kasizz: Fires forth two Sizzles that form a more angular infinity symbol.

Bang-based:

Bang: Fires off a small explosion.

Boom: Fires off a bigger, more powerful explosion.

Kaboom: Fires off the biggest explosion overall dealing around 1100 damage.

Note: Can only hit a target once for each spell tier.

Rubblerouser-based:

Rubblerouser: Places a small spell that triggers a pillar of earth to erupt and impale an opponent.

Boulderbringer: Similar to Rubblerouser, but bigger.

Mountainmover: One of the most powerful offensive spells, it triggers a large sigil on the ground, and causes a massive eruption of earth to appear to damage foes. Frequently does over 1,500 damage.

Note: Only hits a target once for each spell tier.

 

Edited by AzureZoa
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Notes about some abilities and spells:

Lots of spells and abilities that rely on multiple hits, such as Rain of Pain, will only hit a target once. So if you try to use Rain of Pain on Estark, only one hitbox will connect. Two abilities are an inverse form of this: Sword Dance that is exclusive to Maya, and the Shining Shot ability with bows. Both deal a single hit of damage to any target, but there are multiple hitboxes that can connect. The more hitboxes connect, the more powerful the actual damage of the damaging hit will do. Maya's Sword Dance locks her in place unable to dodge cancel, like a lot of her abilities or combo attacks, so it's pretty risky to do. Shining Shot might seem like a good option to use against more powerful enemies, but multiple hits tend to miss, making it much more inferior overall. And compared to Rain of Pain, it lacks the coverage and targeting ability, making it worse overall. Hyper Sniper is better for single targets, and Rain of Pain is better for mobs.

Edited by AzureZoa
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Bianca changes from DQ Heroes 1 to DQ Heroes 2:

In general, characters were immensely buffed from the transition from DQ Heroes 1 to DQ Heroes 2. Bianca is no exception.

Aerials:

-In DQ Heroes 1, Bianca cannot fire her arrows, then follow up with her strong aerial (the dropping knee). She can only do dropping knee, then bounce off a target and fire arrows. In DQ Heroes 2, this was changed, where she can fire three arrows, do her strong aerial, then follow up with one more arrow before finally falling to the ground.

Plasma Dome:

-Plasma Dome now has a very strong initial hit, followed by ticks of damage that range from 90-100 damage range. In DQ Heroes 1, there was no strong initial hit, and just did regular tick damage throughout.

Rain of Pain:

-Bianca packs the best Rain of Pain in the game as she fires ten tracking arrows instead of everyone else's six.

 

Comparisons and contrasts to other bow users:

-Bianca is the only one with access to the Frizz line.

-Lazarel and Teresa can learn Snooze as well.

-Other bow users fire multiple arrows for their weak aerial attacks.

-She has the most aerial stall when firing arrows followed by Angelo, then Lazarel and Teresa.

-She still retains her charges from DQ Heroes 1: Explosive Arrow -> Vicious Volley -> Turbo Shaft. Her Explosive Arrow is much shorter ranged than the other characters.

-She is the only one able to dodge to the side when charging arrows. While she is dodging, the charge of her arrows will not increase. You can be used this to your advantage to stall out what arrow type you want.

Edited by AzureZoa
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Wow, lots of good info, thanks for the writeup. When you get a more finalized version can I post it to the main section on the Den?

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2 hours ago, Woodus said:

Wow, lots of good info, thanks for the writeup. When you get a more finalized version can I post it to the main section on the Den?

Sure thing. It’d be nice to have this somewhere as an extra resource. 

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Some things before I pass out tonight:

-Based on observations with Roseguardians, the Boom line of spells ignore their block. Will test later for confirmation. Same for the other Zam spells.

-If your character gets stunned by a roar, you can dodge out of it. I learned this from another player who also solo killed Dread Dragonlord. This is important in case you don't block his roar, as those pillars of flame can OHKO the majority of the cast even at level 99 with HP enhancing accessories.

-There are extremely few characters who can gain tension through perfect blocks or Counterstriker. Luceus, Aurora, Lazarel, Teresa, and Alena are the only characters. Despite being able to use Rebuttal as well, Terry does not gain tension from a perfect block. It appears characters who have the whole sword/shield move set unlocked from the beginning, without the need to unlock Rebuttal through the skill tree, can gain tension through perfect blocks. The protags of DQ Heroes 1 and 2 fit this description. Alena can unlock Counterproductive which gives her tension with a successful Counterstriker. This is available by default for Lazarel and Teresa when using claws. Counterstriker is also the only perfect block to deal damage, and gain tension. Psaro's Riposte is the only other direct counterattack, but it does far more damage than Counterstriker to compensate for lack of tension gain.

-Do yourself a favor and do not bother with any version of Dragonlord past his base form, and the AI as your buddies. They really aren't programmed well to handle this fight.

-Classes worth investing in for Lazarel and Teresa tend to boil down to three: sage, gladiator, and priest/priestess. I cannot stress how useful their priest vocation is. It has such powerful support that really puts Kiryl to shame, though Kiryl is definitely better in a few ways. Mainly offense, but spear isn't much for DPS.

-Luceus has a unique niche as the only character able to reflect spells and perfect block normal attacks. Plus he and Aurora also have inherently higher block power after unlocking that perk. Normal block damage reduced is 50%. Luceus and Aurora take that up to 60%.

-Artful Dodger adds +5 to evasion. Ace Evader adds 10. I can only assume these mean additional active frames your dodge grants invincibility.

-For any Jessica users, make sure you always pack Sexy Beam. This move is so absurdly busted that I started laughing when I found out. It guarantees stun on larger enemies (minus superbosses/wanted creatures/dungeon masters), which is absolutely enormous to have, but also slows them to such a considerable degree than you can go ham on them, and they cannot do anything. And it can do this twice because there's two hitboxes. No move else like it exists in the game, and its utility is also beyond reproach.

Edited by AzureZoa
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This is EXCELLENT information. I've played almost 100 hours in each game and there's tons here I never knew/thought about!

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I'll have to try this out too! I am in end game grinding for trophies, but man it is slow going. I was able to buy all the weapons but grinding the dimensional dungeons for would-be-weapons is a slog.

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While my video of Psaro vs Estark Extreme uploads, I figure I'll cover my main.

-Psaro was immensely buffed in DQ Heroes 2, to the point he may be the best character in the game. His C3 (Bullet Boot) can now be dodge canceled. C4 (Gravedigger) ignores blocking in both games, but in Heroes 2, you can press Y again (Xbox One controller for reference) to follow up with two sword beams that guarantee stun on larger targets. This of course excludes wanted creatures, superbosses like Estark, and dungeon masters (except Robbin' Hood and the ones he summons).

-Liberation can now be dodge canceled for safety, and you can attack out of it faster compared to Heroes 1. It saps 1 MP continuously while in use, and costs three to activate. He now fires off sword beams for his attack string, and his spin attack now twirls three time versus one. Masterstroke (leaping overhead slam) stuns larger monsters in both games. Liberation in both Heroes games will buff his other skills: A Cut Above and the Zam line of spells. In Heroes 1, Liberation costs 38 MP, and runs off a timer with much less safety and reach. You cannot dodge cancel his spin attack like in Heroes 2. Also you cannot use Masterstroke at the end of his attack string. His combo tree follows a set path. Also his aerials change. One is a large reaching sword slash, and his strong aerial becomes a dive forward similar to twin swords.

-A Cut Above in Heroes 1 has more start up, and doesn't stun larger monsters with the last two slashes like in Heroes 2. However, in both games, Liberation combined with A Cut Above will have all sword swings stun larger monsters. It also costs more in Heroes 2 at 50% more MP (18 vs 12 in Heroes 1). The slash damage is increased with Liberation active in both games.

-The Zam line of spells only increase in damage in Heroes 1 with Liberation activated. They also do not auto track like in Heroes 2. In Heroes 2, Psaro with Liberation activated will change how his spells function. Zam will fire 10 balls instead of five, Kazam fires two projectiles that gather targets and hits each target twice, and lastly Kazammle uses a different graphical effect for the explosion (it looks like a boss Kazammle), and does 1,000 more damage. The Zam line of spells are also noticeably more expensive to cast in Heroes 2. These traits for Zam spells are completely unique to Psaro.

-His Disruptive Wave means he is only one of three characters in Heroes 2 to wipe away buffs on monsters. Lazarel and Teresa can with Morale Masher as warriors, but costs 50% more MP (12 MP), and just aren't as useful in general. He is the only character in Heroes 1 to wipe away monster buffs.

-His DPS is unrivaled by anyone except Carver in Heroes 2 from my testing.

-His C1, Hand of Doom, is one of the few moves in DQ Heroes 1 capable of interrupting larger enemies and stunning them. In DQ Heroes 2, this was changed to absorb MP, and you can now charge it. Uncharged absorbs 2 MP, and occurs much more quickly, allowing it to act as a filler move in between combos like Charging Slash in the sword/shield move set. Fully charged does a little more damage, but absorbs 5 MP. It no longer interrupts larger enemies.

Edited by AzureZoa
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So I started looking into the characters who use the sword/shield move set, and I firmly believe Luceus and Aurora have a more fundamentally solid set of options compared to Lazarel and Teresa. Compared to Terry? Hard to say. 
 

So looking at their combo attacks, attack string, and aerials, there’s practically next to no difference between the four main protagonists. 
 

C1 is a charging slash that allows you to keep pressure up. I’ve found their basic combo pressure, without specials, is pretty straightforward. C3/C4 -> C1 -> repeat. However, I think Lazarel and Teresa’s charging slash has a bit more noticeable start up compared to Luceus and Aurora. 
 

C2 is practically unchanged between the four.

 

C3 is a major difference. Luceus and Aurora undoubtedly have the better C3 with Power Cut. Power Cut does comparable damage to Lazarel and Teresa’s thrust, but it has the bonus of stunning larger enemies. Power Cut is available as an ability in the warrior vocation, but costs a staggering 14 MP for what Luceus and Aurora do for free. Lazarel and Teresa just protect themselves during the start up of C3, which isn’t as useful as stunning larger enemies for more DPS, or interrupting an attack of their’s. 
 

C4’s only real difference is Aurora uses Blizzard Slash instead of Searing Slash. Also this might be placebo talking, but I feel like Luceus and Aurora’s C4 overall is faster. It could just be because I’m more comfortable with their move sets. For Terry it’s noticeably slower to charge, and even execute an uncharged version. 
 

The only difference for the aerials is that there’s a ground cracking animation at the end of Lazarel and Teresa’s strong aerial (flipsaw). Any option you do out of strong aerial is the exact same for all four of them. However, Terry can execute his Flip Chop if you hold down the strong aerial button at the end of it, but Flip Chop is so lol bad, that I don’t believe it’s anything noteworthy. 
 

Lazarel and Teresa have access to everything else Luceus and Aurora do that’s tied to the sword and shield move set. Inferno Slash, Zap spell line, and Flame Slash. The only difference for Aurora is she uses the ice variations, but the only minor difference is these abilities have a chance to freeze targets for a very short time, so nothing to write home about. 
 

However, depending on vocation, Lazarel and Teresa have access to unique abilities that can make a large difference. The same goes for Luceus and Aurora who both have a unique skill not available to Lazarel or Teresa. The warrior vocation doesn’t really offer anything except far more balanced stats when compared to Luceus and Aurora. Gladiator is much more skewed to its enhanced dodge at +20, and high deftness and strength. Gladiator noticeably has very low HP compared to Luceus and Aurora, and lower bulk, and noticeably lower MP (probably being the worst MP in the game). 
 

Gladiator also has some of the most terrible magical might, if not the outright worst, meaning it recharges MP more slowly than Luceus and Aurora, nor can it use the Zap spell line as effectively. And since sword/shield DPS is pretty mediocre overall, that extra attack doesn’t amount to much outside of something potentially like Flame Slash. 
 

Luceus and Aurora also have inherently higher block power unless the Metal King Shield is being used, and the shields offered to Lazarel and Teresa can help reduce magical damage/breath damage by 10% even if they don’t block the attack. So something pretty minor overall. 
 

Now getting into spells and abilities, warrior nor gladiator can use Zap as well as Luceus or Aurora due to lower magical might. And warrior offers...nothing over Luceus or Aurora except Morale Masher, but again, that’s a more expensive Disruptive Wave. Everything else, aside from Spinferno, is something Luceus or Aurora have but better. And then Flame Slash can cumulatively do more damage than Spinferno. 
 

Gladiator on the other hand offers Blind Man’s Biff, Whirlwind Reaper, and Hurt Convertor despite the overall lack of stats compared to Luceus and Aurora. Whirlwind Reaper is an extremely strong projectile, and Blind Man’s Biff, while very slow and could possibly be avoided, is one of the single strongest abilities in the game. And Hurt Convertor is a slightly less expensive skill, while being faster for all animations, compared to Terry’s Miracle Slash. 14 MP vs 16 MP. 
 

So gladiator has more powerful abilities and the ability to restore its health unlike Luceus or Aurora. But not to count Luceus and Aurora out, Luceus is the only character who can counter physical attacks, abilities, and spells because of Rebuttal (basically perfect parry) and Bounce. Which is a powerful and useful niche to have since spells and abilities tend to make things frequently chaotic. Aurora also packs Helm Splitter, at a reasonable 8 MP, too. So she can debuff an enemy for the whole crew to do extra damage...which neither gladiator nor warrior can do. 
 

So given the overall ability comparisons, and standard kit, I’d give Luceus and Aurora a much better rating in terms of viability than Lazarel or Teresa using the same move set. Especially as a warrior. Gladiator can carve itself a niche with healing and more powerful abilities, but it cannot use its other abilities as well as Luceus or Aurora, and its overall support compared to both characters tanks. Also gladiator on average has much worse bulk in defense and HP, plus a much worse magical might, meaning this vocation doesn’t restore MP as quickly to spam those abilities unless you’re pretty conservative with them. And then compared to Luceus, its max MP is 13 worse, and 8 when compared to Aurora.

Edited by AzureZoa
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Actually I would like to edit something I just found out. Psaro does in fact gain tension of his Riposte perfect block AND from his counterattack. He gains much more tension than the other characters. This means his Riposte is the best perfect block in the game, dealing more damage than Counterstriker, and gaining more tension off it. 

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39 minutes ago, Brother Jaybird said:

Wow; I'm gonna have to take some time to digest this all in depth.

Well there’s a lot more coming over the next days, weeks, and months. Labbing out a game like this is a major time sink. I did it for Breath of the Wild and all three versions of Hyrule Warriors. This is just my latest OCD obsession. 😜

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On 7/22/2020 at 1:34 AM, AzureZoa said:

-Based on observations with Roseguardians, the Boom line of spells ignore their block. Will test later for confirmation. Same for the other Zam spells.

I believe the Zap line bypasses their defenses, as well.

On 7/22/2020 at 1:34 AM, AzureZoa said:

-Do yourself a favor and do not bother with any version of Dragonlord past his base form, and the AI as your buddies. They really aren't programmed well to handle this fight.

Also, Amen.

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1 hour ago, Brother Jaybird said:

I believe the Zap line bypasses their defenses, as well.

Thanks for the heads up. I will be looking into all this tonight. Actually get off work earlier today. 
 

On a side note, I was thinking about the overall move sets in the game, and I believe some of the strongest ones are gladiator w/ twin swords, gladiator w/claws, Alena, Carver, Psaro, and possibly Terry. I’ll give some more details later, though while marital artist has access to claws with Muster Strength (single target Oomph essentially), and Divide and Conquer, I believe it is outdone overall by what gladiator has to offer instead. 

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On the subject of weapon performance, after the nightmares of last night with solo priest Teresa vs Estark Extreme, I feel I should say wand, spear, and staff are extremely lackluster overall. 
 

Wand is only good for crowds. It’s too slow, and if you want best DPS, you must pop the bubbles...which require some kind of set up regardless. Plus Miracle Moon is just extremely tiny for the area it covers, and does very little damage per hit. It isn’t like Plasma Dome’s effectiveness.

Spear has the major dodge issue with it. Ngl when I say this, but spear is fairly mediocre if it had a normal dodge out of...everything. You even do those terrible sidestep dodges out of a special or ability. It isn’t terrible, nor amazing, but it does decently with an okay kit. Even a couple of the abilities exclusive to it aren’t necessarily bad either. What really makes this move set suffer is the standard poke does such little damage, and it’s a primary source of DPS for single targets since Multithrust is really risky. So a lot of your options will come from Thunder Thrust. What’s funny is its aerials all do remarkably decent damage lol. So it has good aerials in function, and damage output. 
 

Staff just...whirl and twirl for crowds, maybe a Party Pooper out of it on occasion or the flip slam for larger bosses, but otherwise you would just keeping using Keepie-Uppie (the double kick) for your damage. Its abilities for single targets suck, though Deliverance is solid for groups of enemies if you do it at the right time. Damage is insane, large suction, etc. It just locks you in place for a while.

Edited by AzureZoa
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Well, I started back into Heroes 1 for a while, and Bianca's charge attacks are virtually changed in all honesty. Something important I should note is that her Turbo Shaft consists of three hitboxes. I think Angelo and Lazarel/Teresa with bow are the same. However, I do know that her Turbo Shaft fires in a straight line, and does not arc off like the other bow users.

Blocking has also changed tremendously between both games. In Heroes 1, enemies that block protect against a certain amount of damage, and this does change with tiers of enemies I believe. I'll keep labbing it out later. Also blocking by default in Heroes 2, as I noted before, reduces damage by 50%. The blocking stat is Heroes 1 is odd though. There's no direct description what the blocking stat does exactly. I thought it functioned like enemy shields, so the blocking stat would absorb 30 damage, for say something like the Metal King Greatsword. That does not appear to be the case. Attacks that would have done in excess of 30 damage...did no damage on block.

I feel I should mention with the tension changes in Heroes 2, Terry was nerfed pretty hard. I think he also got changes to his Falcon Slash that cut down his damage with Vacuum Slash, or Vacuum Slash as a whole is just a massively nerfed version of his Gust Slash in Heroes 1. Either way, Terry is undoubtedly the best boss killer in Heroes 1, and gains tension at such a rate, he's absolutely instrumental in killing them at the fastest rate. Because of this he's pretty one dimensional though. Spam Falcon Slash into Gust Slash, then abuse tension, and spam it more for free. Then after stun them and keep repeating. It's so potent you can literally stunlock Atlas, and he's the tankiest enemy in the game.

Though with the addition of some things, Terry is still a very potent character overall compared to the cast. I would argue Terry is one of the best examples of a self-sustaining character, and by that, I mean his kit has everything. His new Brain Drain is pretty much the best overall MP restoration ability. Only Drain Magic with a heavy wand on a large enough group of enemies absorbs more MP. Terry's MP drain is consistent, too. Restores between 21 to 25 MP, and this absorbs as much from single target enemies. Aside from that, he has all sorts of utility with Miracle Slash restoring health, a high damage option with Cutting Edge, what little utility Kaclang offers is highly valuable, etc.

His DPS is roughly that of Lucius/Aurora though. His primary DPS comes from Cross Current mixed with Falcon Slash, or Cutting Edge. Terry did gain a new hit of his attack string that does substantial damage, too, so there's that. With Falcon Slash, I'd say his DPS becomes above average enough to be considered for taking down larger bosses. He's probably not as useful as Alena or claws in that regard, but he's not lacking.

Other odd things I feel like pointing out are certain characters have weaker initial hits of their attack strings. Psaro is Heroes 1 is an example. Starting with R2, his attacks do more damage than his R1. Torneko is another example. His attack string is much, much stronger starting on R2 out of three hits.

Speaking of Torneko, he unarguably has the worst coup de grace because the enemy will practically get up before he can act. He has to pick himself up and taunt them a bit. Psaro's isn't fantastic either, but it's enough to where he can get some hits off before they get up. Probably the best coup de grace overall belong to Luceus and Lazarel/Teresa because of how fast it ends, and how fast it occurs. Aurora's Gigaslash is good, too, but leaves her in the air with less time to pummel afterward.

Also you can no longer triple jump in high tension in Heroes 2. Kinda sucks tbqh because that added mobility could let you scale higher locations faster.

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Hey guys, so I did some labbing, and recorded results for one of the tests. Here it is:

 

So Frost Slash and Flame Slash are practically identical, though that pretty much goes without saying. The difference I noticed was for Lazarel, in the gladiator vocation , doing 20-30 more damage on average for the six hits in between the first and final hits. Also, the first hit does a respectable amount of damage, followed by six hits that do around 1/3 of the initial hit's damage, with the last eighth hit doing around half of the initial hit. I don't know what would cause such a damage discrepancy between Lazarel and Luceus/Aurora since his actual attack is a measly 20~ higher, which shouldn't have that level of impact on Flame Slash's damage. Plus his actual strength stat is like 200 lower than Luceus or Aurora. So no clue there.

Also, Cold Fission and Inferno Slash function like Maya's Sword Dance and Shining Shot. They inflict a single hit of damage based on the amount of hits the enemy takes in the attack itself. If they're killed in the attack, they take the damage, and are flung out of it just like the other two moves.

You can also have up to 11 orbs while you're charging your attack for heavy wand. I'm still labbing out how these work on single targets, but I know that it's entirely possible for it to hit a single target multiple times based on how many of those orbs hit.

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Labbing involving spells ignoring block done. All tested on a Roseguardian.

Successful: Woosh, Zam, Whack (this is nigh impossible to work, but it still hits through shield regardless)

Unsuccessful: Everything else

Their shields even blocked all hitboxes from all different tiers of spells I tested. I made sure to go all out here. A Roseguardian can be frozen through his block. Also a general rule of thumb is if a line of spells do not ignore blocking, then none of them will. Whereas if that spell line ignores guarding, then all will ignore guarding. The reason Woosh works is because it throws the Roseguardian off balance, and he proceeds to get tossed and tumbled in the whirlwind. It's pretty funny honestly.

Also Thunder Thrust hits through shields. I'll do more investigations into this matter for other moves later.

Finally, something to note is Terry's Lighting Strike will critical everything it hits if the first hit gets a critical.

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So I did a DPS comparison between all sword users, and Terry has the potential to have the best DPS of them all by spamming Falcon Slash and Cutting Edge variants as much as possible. I broke my PB by more than three whole minutes on Estark Extreme just doing this. Some well placed tension set ups, and boom, Terry is pretty good.

However this is a twofold problem, but not overbearing I think. First is Terry’s noticeable lack of attack power compared to Luceus, Aurora, Lazarel, and Teresa as gladiators. His attack power compared to them as a warrior is pretty much the same. So this means his Storm Slash is slower and weaker than any other variant. And given his lack of something comparable to Flame Slash, his DPS takes a hit. I did some labbing, and the sword/shield move set really relies a lot on Flame Slash for damaging rack as its best option. This excludes something like Blind Man’s Biff of course, but otherwise, it has the best damage output of anything aside from Spinferno. 
 

The second issue is the absolutely vast MP consumption being used, and I think this is why he got Brain Drain. Terry’s noticeable lack of something like Flame Slash for DPS, and how Cross Current does half damage starting on hit three, really puts a dampener on his damage output. It’s pretty average at best despite having a very strong attack string. So he has to remedy this with a lot of Falcon Slashes to up his damage output by another 33% or so for each clone, and spamming it with Uber Cutting Edge gives such high DPS, it’s well above average in the game. 6 minutes, 18 seconds on Estark Extreme is nothing to scoff at. Under six minutes is possible I believe with a much better run. 
 

I think a lot of Terry’s gameplay comes from Cutting Edge variants, Falcon Slash, and his attack string. Cross Current isn’t terrible, but it losing half its attack power per swing starting with hit three, with a maximum of six, means four out of six hits do around half of what one hit of his attack string does. That’s a very noticeable drop in damage. 
 

Also, aside from Terry, I did some more labbing with Morale Masher. I was mistaken. It requires 6 MP instead of 12. No idea why I was thinking it was 12, but it is actually less expensive than Psaro’s Disruptive Wave. By about 20% if I’m not mistaken. 
 

Now for the other sword users, I did other tests involving Power Cut as a warrior compared to Luceus and Aurora. Power Cut is noticeably stronger at that costly 14 MP, but also produces noticeable lag you can’t attack from unlike Luceus and Aurora’s. It still stuns larger enemies, but is definitely much worse than the protagonists from DQ Heroes 1. Also your DPS from combo attacks, like say attacking into your C4 (Searing Slash/Blizzard Slash) isn’t terrible, but what makes sword is Flame Slash/Frost Slash better in DPS. Outside of these abilities, relying on your combo attacks for max damage will not compare. Spinferno is another fantastic option. What your character’s normal combo kit is good for is damage in between, stunning if you’re Luceus/Aurora, and crowds for C4. 
 

As for prior mentions of C1 feeling slower for Lazarel, I’m not really noticing it. That was likely placebo. Also Lazarel’s attack power did have that much of an effect on his Flame Slash being more powerful. I compared it between Luceus and level 99 warrior. Damage on hits 2-7 was noticeably higher than the others by 20-30 damage on average. Warrior does comparable damage to Luceus/Aurora with their Flame Slash. 
 

Well that’s it for another lengthy write up. 

Edited by AzureZoa
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Well, this happened:

20200730031806_1.thumb.jpg.14ccbc5688691e60016846cc89449ae1.jpg

Used Lazarel with claws as a gladiator. No AI. Just solo on Estark Extreme. I CAN SUB THREE MINUTE THIS MAN. This is crazy. I believe I've found the most powerful DPS option in the game. Claws going in with uber white wolf claws, Divide and Conquer, then spam Blind Man's Biff. When you get tension, just spam it to kingdom come. Estark's health with just MELT. This is unbelievable. Claws alone are already one of the best move sets, but gladiator pulling this off? I don't see any reason to use other weapons for him. Claws have just about everything you're looking for minus a projectile. Even has a perfect block, that gains tension, and does damage no less. You can restore health, too.

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On 7/22/2020 at 4:48 AM, Plattym3 said:

This is EXCELLENT information. I've played almost 100 hours in each game and there's tons here I never knew/thought about!

Same. 

 

OP: Do you have a pen and pad to document all this while you're playing?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, cprmauldin said:

OP: Do you have a pen and pad to document all this while you're playing?

Nope. My mind’s a steel trap.

Edited by AzureZoa
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Posted (edited)

Alright, so I've narrowed a few things down as to why Lazarel is getting such ridiculous times for Estark.

1. First, I should draw the distinction all his DPS comes from two things: Divide and Conquer, plus spamming it with Blind Man's Biff in super high tension. You can get around five of these off before you're forced into his coup de grace.

2. The extreme MP consumption required to do this, with gladiator's already low natural MP, and very low MP restoration, means you should use this conservatively. Even outside superboss fights. This is circumvented by aiming to get two super high tensions to bring him to his knees.

You fulfill these requirements, get two super high tensions, and Estark is down.

 

I should also point out a couple other things. Claws is not the ultimate move set. That distinction still belongs to Psaro I would say. However, it is still one of the best in the game I would argue (same for Alena). Claws are extremely focused on one on one, and really do lack good damage ranges all around. The strongest single hit damage value it has is a fully charged Knuckle Sandwich, which is pretty good actually. The second strongest hit is marginally stronger than an uncharged Searing Slash from Luceus, so essentially the move set has low damage values all around. This extends to Alena. The move set lacks a good ranged option, and its crowd options are pretty meh outside of Glove Bomb or using Divide and Conquer to increase hitbox size.

Claws just lack the other strengths Psaro has: guaranteed ability to stun larger enemies (even in large groups, which is a godsend in this game), a projectile. MP restoration, ability to ignore blocking, etc. Psaro overall has higher damage ranges under normal circumstances than claws do, giving him a far higher, more consistent, DPS overall in the game. I think the only other character with this level of DPS is Carver still, and that's after he uses a Strength Ring, and Muster Strength. Not to say claws are not very good, as they are amazing, but the gladiator vocation truly brings out the potential in this move set.

Why I say it brings out the potential is largely due to two things: Divide and Conquer's extra hitboxes, and the lack of an extremely powerful option. Because Hurt Convertor restores around 10% of cumulative damage done, the multiple hits of claws, combined with Divide and Conquer, increase your healing exponentially. This is especially true if used off a Divide and Conquer Blind Man's Biff. And this circles backs to the extremely powerful option: the clones last for an incredibly long time from Divide and Conquer, plus they deal about 33% of damage dealt done to targets. So even one Blind Man's Biff from a clone is doing several hundred, to over 1K in damage, especially if it's off a critical or on a weak point. The clones last like a full minute compared to Falcon Slash's 15 seconds, or when you divide at the end of a combo attack with claws/Alena (those last five seconds). 

These traits combined with a very fast attack string, strong aerials, a good C4 (it's essentially Psaro's C3), and the other best perfect block, and you have the recipe for a very, very strong move set. It's a highly specialized move set for one on one, and meh in other areas, but it still brings the pain in groups. It just doesn't kill large groups of normal enemies too well due to lack of wide hitboxes or projectiles (the exception to this is Glove Bomb which costs a large 13 MP). Like its whole kit for weaker enemies is beaten out by a simple Inferno Slash or Cold Fission lol. So you might see a lot of trouble with large groups of weaker enemies casting things like Bang, Kasap, etc. But it has everything needed to be a strong kit I would say.

Well enough yammering. Back to the game. 😜

Edited by AzureZoa
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