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2 hours ago, Plattym3 said:

I just figured@YangustheLegendaryBandit was invoking the "picture says 1000 words" saying to stay in neighborhood of Iggy!

It was all part of the master plan. I added the extra words on the picture to push the word count even more.

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8 hours ago, YangustheLegendaryBandit said:

The picture was a total joke. Just thought it would be funny after that big old essay post of yours. 😜

You know me. I can’t help but joke and somehow manage to cause a change in conversation. It’s part of being a legendary bandit.

Would be a very sad day if you ever changed, ey guv?

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Posted (edited)
On 5/22/2020 at 4:49 PM, DragonQuest2IsGood said:

I keep hearing people say it's the most boring game in the series and that the class system is the only good thing about it. Is that really the majority opinion or is that just a vocal minority?

It sounds like entitlement to me. It's like with Final Fantasy where some go toxic and run around screaming "FF 8 sucks! FF 13 sucks! Characters suck, writing sucks, everything sucks.." etc, etc... and yet these games sell millions. Franchises like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy would not exist if they did not have a certain mark of quality. It's important to be open-minded and to try to appreciate the game but sadly people jump on the hate train as soon as:
1) they see a character with whom they don't want to identify and who they don't want to understand;

2) if they are asked to appreciate a different kind of game or to learn something when they don't feel like it;

3) when they just don't want to play but blame the game instead.

 

The dungeons were a little bland in DQ 7 on 3DS but it is a very old game, so it's silly to expect it to be as good as the modern games, and even modern JRPG often struggle making the dungeons fun and more than just "10x enemies". DQ 7 is a fantastic adventure, some people were just turned off because of the reasons I mentioned above and in case with DQ 7, they probably disliked that the characters looked very young. 

 

We don't need to like all games, even in our favorite franchises but I've noticed that people usually criticise things only because they disliked it personally, which is fine - you don't need to play what you don't like, but negativity is not the way. And reviewers? Those guys usually just follow the trend and want the clicks.

Edited by ShonenKokoro

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20 hours ago, ShonenKokoro said:

It sounds like entitlement to me. It's like with Final Fantasy where some go toxic and run around screaming "FF 8 sucks! FF 13 sucks! Characters suck, writing sucks, everything sucks.." etc, etc... and yet these games sell millions. Franchises like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy would not exist if they did not have a certain mark of quality. It's important to be open-minded and to try to appreciate the game but sadly people jump on the hate train as soon as:
1) they see a character with whom they don't want to identify and who they don't want to understand;

2) if they are asked to appreciate a different kind of game or to learn something when they don't feel like it;

3) when they just don't want to play but blame the game instead.

 

The dungeons were a little bland in DQ 7 on 3DS but it is a very old game, so it's silly to expect it to be as good as the modern games, and even modern JRPG often struggle making the dungeons fun and more than just "10x enemies". DQ 7 is a fantastic adventure, some people were just turned off because of the reasons I mentioned above and in case with DQ 7, they probably disliked that the characters looked very young. 

 

We don't need to like all games, even in our favorite franchises but I've noticed that people usually criticise things only because they disliked it personally, which is fine - you don't need to play what you don't like, but negativity is not the way. And reviewers? Those guys usually just follow the trend and want the clicks.

Why do you like FF13?

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20 hours ago, ShonenKokoro said:

It sounds like entitlement to me. It's like with Final Fantasy where some go toxic and run around screaming "FF 8 sucks! FF 13 sucks! Characters suck, writing sucks, everything sucks.." etc, etc... and yet these games sell millions. Franchises like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy would not exist if they did not have a certain mark of quality. It's important to be open-minded and to try to appreciate the game but sadly people jump on the hate train as soon as:
1) they see a character with whom they don't want to identify and who they don't want to understand;

2) if they are asked to appreciate a different kind of game or to learn something when they don't feel like it;

3) when they just don't want to play but blame the game instead.

 

The dungeons were a little bland in DQ 7 on 3DS but it is a very old game, so it's silly to expect it to be as good as the modern games, and even modern JRPG often struggle making the dungeons fun and more than just "10x enemies". DQ 7 is a fantastic adventure, some people were just turned off because of the reasons I mentioned above and in case with DQ 7, they probably disliked that the characters looked very young. 

 

We don't need to like all games, even in our favorite franchises but I've noticed that people usually criticise things only because they disliked it personally, which is fine - you don't need to play what you don't like, but negativity is not the way. And reviewers? Those guys usually just follow the trend and want the clicks.

I'm not sure if entitlement is the word that I'd personally use, but I agree with your point. 

There's a lot of "This sucks, that sucks," vs. "Not for me." 

I think that is why I still read both professional and amateur reviews, because the professionals do a better job of giving the game a description and rating without dumping a whole bunch of personal bias into it. 

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I'm not sure if entitlement is the word that I'd personally use, but I agree with your point. 
There's a lot of "This sucks, that sucks," vs. "Not for me." 
I think that is why I still read both professional and amateur reviews, because the professionals do a better job of giving the game a description and rating without dumping a whole bunch of personal bias into it. 
That's so hard to do too. My first review for RPGamer was for the ugliest damn indie game. Personally I'd have called it and moved on, but the gameplay was perfectly average and the art style was more a style I hated, so had to give it a slightly better than meh average, because objectively it was that. Subjectively,

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DQ7 is paced poorly in relation to other games of it's kind, even from its era. The quest triggers can be quite annoying. But those things don't really detract from the experience for me because I generally talk to everybody in DQ games which almost always eliminates quest trigger troubles. Also for a series that runs the gamut between short and long games, DQ7 totally has its place as more of a slow burn.

Anytime I give my personal negative review of something it's done with the knowledge that somebody, somewhere out there, will get more out of it than I did. And that's perfectly fine. It can even be that there are objective flaws with the media, but for some people those flaws just don't matter as much and they can appreciate the positives without it bothering them. But in my review of something I might even sound quite harsh because I have personal standard that media needs to reach in order for me to praise it. Maybe those standards are sometimes arbitrary or unfair. And to that I just reiterate my earlier point that everyone has differences in tastes and I'm not proclaiming my opinion to be the only right one.

Except for when it comes to Game of Thrones. Season 8 was terrible and if you liked it then you should feel bad about yourself.

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1 hour ago, AustNerevar said:

DQ7 is paced poorly in relation to other games of it's kind, even from its era. The quest triggers can be quite annoying. But those things don't really detract from the experience for me because I generally talk to everybody in DQ games which almost always eliminates quest trigger troubles. Also for a series that runs the gamut between short and long games, DQ7 totally has its place as more of a slow burn.

Anytime I give my personal negative review of something it's done with the knowledge that somebody, somewhere out there, will get more out of it than I did. And that's perfectly fine. It can even be that there are objective flaws with the media, but for some people those flaws just don't matter as much and they can appreciate the positives without it bothering them. But in my review of something I might even sound quite harsh because I have personal standard that media needs to reach in order for me to praise it. Maybe those standards are sometimes arbitrary or unfair. And to that I just reiterate my earlier point that everyone has differences in tastes and I'm not proclaiming my opinion to be the only right one.

Except for when it comes to Game of Thrones. Season 8 was terrible and if you liked it then you should feel bad about yourself.

Heh, it's called being fair and being able to differentiate something you enjoy, a subjective position, versus objective reality, such as poor choices in game design, or good choices that aren't for everyone but work well in context with that experience.  Not all games have to be a fast paced to tell a good story, which you get.

I mean for myself, DQ7 is a 7.5/10, and it's my favourite game.  In some ways I enjoy the flaws, as they're definitely unique (like the FMV sequences...dear lord they feel like Ed Wood returned from the grave for one last destructive romp, and chose DQ7 as his final haunt).

As per Season 8?  Yes, but that was a given as they kicked out George R.R. Martin, and removed his influence.  This was already apparent in Season 7, where he was far less involved.

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On 5/28/2020 at 5:15 PM, Plattym3 said:

That's so hard to do too. My first review for RPGamer was for the ugliest damn indie game. Personally I'd have called it emoji90.png and moved on, but the gameplay was perfectly average and the art style was more a style I hated, so had to give it a slightly better than meh average, because objectively it was that. Subjectively, emoji1785.pngemoji2961.png

How do you even iron that bias out?

 

Do you just take notes (or mental notes) and review them in a subjective way?

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How do you even iron that bias out?
 
Do you just take notes (or mental notes) and review them in a subjective way?
1. Don't even attempt to review games that I know I won't like.
2. Go in excited & focus on those few things that dulled my excitement.
3. Explain, explain, explain. Honestly most of my reviews are all 3.5 and 4/5. Great games, with some nitpicking.

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11 hours ago, Plattym3 said:

1. Don't even attempt to review games that I know I won't like.
2. Go in excited & focus on those few things that dulled my excitement.
3. Explain, explain, explain. Honestly most of my reviews are all 3.5 and 4/5. Great games, with some nitpicking.

Yeah that is how I'd imagine I'd be too. 

 

For some reason I just thought you randomly got sent review codes. 

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Yeah that is how I'd imagine I'd be too. 
 
For some reason I just thought you randomly got sent review codes. 
We get a group email and "who would like to do..." and a half-dozen times I've been specifically offered things I've mentioned.

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3 hours ago, cprmauldin said:

Yeah that is how I'd imagine I'd be too. 

 

For some reason I just thought you randomly got sent review codes. 

I’ve heard it that the way it works in a lot of cases is reviewers request games they’re interested in, but this can lead to some games being left behind. But there needs to be a review written for it, so they end up being forced on a reviewer who might not be into that kind of game. This leads to half-hearted reviews that end up being generally negative and ignorant of the appeal.

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I’ve heard it that the way it works in a lot of cases is reviewers request games they’re interested in, but this can lead to some games being left behind. But there needs to be a review written for it, so they end up being forced on a reviewer who might not be into that kind of game. This leads to half-hearted reviews that end up being generally negative and ignorant of the appeal.
Yeah, sometimes I'll jump on something that's been passed around for a week or two.

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Reminds me of how on IGN several DS RPGs got really mediocre reviews when the games themselves were praised by fans and other reviewers. Turns out the people who had to play said games had no interest in RPGs anyway and were handed the review just because.

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5 minutes ago, YangustheLegendaryBandit said:

Reminds me of how on IGN several DS RPGs got really mediocre reviews when the games themselves were praised by fans and other reviewers. Turns out the people who had to play said games had no interest in RPGs anyway and were handed the review just because.

To be fair, I think this only happened to Dragon Quest VI, and they were right in retrospect. I was sold on IV and V exclusively based on IGN reviews, and I watched the IX review multiple times because I was so hyped for it.

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1. Don't even attempt to review games that I know I won't like.
2. Go in excited & focus on those few things that dulled my excitement.
3. Explain, explain, explain. Honestly most of my reviews are all 3.5 and 4/5. Great games, with some nitpicking.
Bias is, of course, an inherently negative thing in any kind of review if it causes you to regard the content unfairly. However, don't discount the value of reviewing a game you dislike.

Totalbiscuit hated 3D platformers and mostly avoided them. However, he tried to remain impartial when he did review them and oftentimes the criticisms he had, even if colored by his bias, would often communicate valuable info. If Platty hates linear level design and goes on a rant about all the aspects of a linear game, then it might convince somebody who enjoys that linearity to purchase the game. If you dislike a mechanic that I like, your negative criticism if fairly constructed could still be informative to me.

But I get that it's hard to be unbiased and doing what I suggested above isn't always possible. I don't like sports and I can't give you a valid, analytical reason why I don't. I just don't.
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Bias is, of course, an inherently negative thing in any kind of review if it causes you to regard the content unfairly. However, don't discount the value of reviewing a game you dislike.

Totalbiscuit hated 3D platformers and mostly avoided them. However, he tried to remain impartial when he did review them and oftentimes the criticisms he had, even if colored by his bias, would often communicate valuable info. If Platty hates linear level design and goes on a rant about all the aspects of a linear game, then it might convince somebody who enjoys that linearity to purchase the game. If you dislike a mechanic that I like, your negative criticism if fairly constructed could still be informative to me.

But I get that it's hard to be unbiased and doing what I suggested above isn't always possible. I don't like sports and I can't give you a valid, analytical reason why I don't. I just don't.
Had both sides of that last year. Gave SteamWorld Quest a try and absolutely loved it. Gave it a 4.5 when our site hadn't done a 4.5 in 17 months.

Then I tried really hard to like Super Neptunia RPG. It was trash.

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I think trying to eliminate your personal bias from a review is foolish. Your opinion can not be unbiased. Jim Sterling made a brilliant video where he reviewed FF XIII with only objectivity, no subjectivity:

Also, just me personally, I’d sooner take someone’s extremely biased opinion if I know their taste well enough that I can understand where they came from. Watch enough of a single person’s videos and you’ll understand why they gave something a 7/10 even when you disagree.

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I think trying to eliminate your personal bias from a review is foolish. Your opinion can not be unbiased. Jim Sterling made a brilliant video where he reviewed FF XIII with only objectivity, no subjectivity:
Also, just me personally, I’d sooner take someone’s extremely biased opinion if I know their taste well enough that I can understand where they came from. Watch enough of a single person’s videos and you’ll understand why they gave something a 7/10 even when you disagree.
Elimination of bias is mostly impossible. The drive to reduce bias is what most should strive for.

But the second part of your post is more or less what I was saying above. Bias, in media review at least, has its value.

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38 minutes ago, eal said:

To be fair, I think this only happened to Dragon Quest VI, and they were right in retrospect. I was sold on IV and V exclusively based on IGN reviews, and I watched the IX review multiple times because I was so hyped for it.

There were others. I’m sure you’ll give me #$*! for it, but another RPG that had that happen was Etrian Odyssey III. That game got a mediocre 6/10, and while it’s not my favorite entry in the series it’s definitely not deserving of that low of a score. All the comments from the writer spelled it out that he was definitely not an RPG fan, and especially not a dungeon crawler fan.

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20 minutes ago, YangustheLegendaryBandit said:

There were others. I’m sure you’ll give me #$*! for it, but another RPG that had that happen was Etrian Odyssey III. That game got a mediocre 6/10, and while it’s not my favorite entry in the series it’s definitely not deserving of that low of a score. All the comments from the writer spelled it out that he was definitely not an RPG fan, and especially not a dungeon crawler fan.

60% is a passing score, even if you use the flawed "letter grade" system. I mean, it's not great, but that's above 5 which should be average. Who decided 6/10 was a bad score? Especially when scoring something subjective?

 

I'm not speaking of the game in question, I haven't played it. I just critiquing the scoring system. I don't think every game worth playing needs a 10/10. If it's above 50% of the total possible score, that's above average.

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12 minutes ago, Erdrick The Hero said:

60% is a passing score, even if you use the flawed "letter grade" system. I mean, it's not great, but that's above 5 which should be average. Who decided 6/10 was a bad score? Especially when scoring something subjective?

 

I'm not speaking of the game in question, I haven't played it. I just critiquing the scoring system. I don't think every game worth playing needs a 10/10. If it's above 50% of the total possible score, that's above average.

I’m glad someone else has this view. You spend 12 years of your life getting grades where you only pass if you get a 60% or above, and your brain automatically associates a 6/10 with “barely passable.” This, along with reviewers attempts at scoring based on “objectivity” over personal subjective enjoyment, and peoples’ perception of scores gets warped. 5/10 is passable and a fine grade. Anything above that should be skewing positive over negative.

Sleeping Dogs, Pokemon Pinball, and Alan Wake are all 10/10 games to me. And I’ve long insisted that Pokemon Silver was better than its remake. Most people would likely give them all (except Silver) 7 or 8 out of 10 scores. People should start caring about their own opinions.

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26 minutes ago, Erdrick The Hero said:

60% is a passing score, even if you use the flawed "letter grade" system. I mean, it's not great, but that's above 5 which should be average. Who decided 6/10 was a bad score? Especially when scoring something subjective?

 

I'm not speaking of the game in question, I haven't played it. I just critiquing the scoring system. I don't think every game worth playing needs a 10/10. If it's above 50% of the total possible score, that's above average.

When I say Mediocre, I mean Average, alright. I didn’t say 6/10 was a bad score. As far as I’m concerned as long as something has over a 5/10, the game is fine.

What I’m saying is that games weren’t being fairly judged, and were being given lower scores than they deserved by people who clearly didn’t give a #$*! about RPGs. You need people who have experience, whether professionally or as being fans of the genre, who can fairly critique a game and do a review. Stuff like DQ6 and EO3 getting a 6/10 is, frankly, kind of unfair to those games. Games with genuine quality to them can get the short end of the stick because of that.

 

I’ve said my piece though, so we’ll leave it at that.

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19 minutes ago, YangustheLegendaryBandit said:

When I say Mediocre, I mean Average, alright. I didn’t say 6/10 was a bad score. As far as I’m concerned as long as something has over a 5/10, the game is fine.

What I’m saying is that games weren’t being fairly judged, and were being given lower scores than they deserved by people who clearly didn’t give a #$*! about RPGs. You need people who have experience, whether professionally or as being fans of the genre, who can fairly critique a game and do a review. Stuff like DQ6 and EO3 getting a 6/10 is, frankly, kind of unfair to those games. Games with genuine quality to them can get the short end of the stick because of that.

 

I’ve said my piece though, so we’ll leave it at that.

Man, it seems like everything I say nowadays comes off as argumentative. I wasn't disagreeing with you - DQ6 is surely *at least* a 7 - more just picking out a detail to talk about that stood out to me because it's something about society that bothers me. It wasn't as slight at you personally and I'm sorry if it came off that way.

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