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muddy120

What do you guys think of the DQ person who doesn't support the series because of views of Sugiyama

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2 hours ago, Bururian said:

edit: I've found at least twice that the "bad music" stance is just a strawman for how they feel though.

Take a look at this video. This is normally a good channel. It's a perfectly fine piece until about the last third when her tone significantly shifts. She comes off overly snotty and snide. By the end she sounds like the type that would say, "He's, like, a total garbage person!" unironically.

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1 hour ago, Dwaine said:

Take a look at this video. This is normally a good channel. It's a perfectly fine piece until about the last third when her tone significantly shifts. She comes off overly snotty and snide. By the end she sounds like the type that would say, "He's, like, a total garbage person!" unironically.

You're not kidding. That was a really hard shift.

Breaking news: Old man says controversial #$*!.

 

That reminds me of a Bill Burr bit.

 

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I don't care that Sylvando is gay. I don't have anything wrong with anybody being gay, real or fiction. Do who you want. I can't stand overly-flamboyant people though. The fake-happy overzealous cheeriness is like nails on a chalkboard. This is why I don't like Sylvando. Actually, he wouldn't be so bad if I turned off voice acting, but then I wouldn't be able to hear anyone else.

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I immediately disliked Sylvia cause of his face, he looked annoying. And lo, annoying he turned out to be.

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Ugh don't me started on this. Oh well too late. If you are easily offended please look away. :)

So I'm guessing what happened is the following:

Some nothing loser video game "journalist" NPC combs what xe considers far-right Japanese TV show for dirt to gain notoriety. Maybe it is far right but it's hard to get an objective look at things in another language, and I don't trust most "journalist". Plus one of those a-holes dissed my DQ5r translations so their taste is clearly questionable!

Sugi baby said something bad about a protected class with a very powerful and rich lobbying group. (Bad move, should have said it about white straight males, you'd be a hero!)

Said group agitates cowardly video game corporation. Corporation bends over and apologies like a #$*!.


Dragon Quest has 99 problems, but Sugiyama isn't one of them. Most of the 99 is the shitty localizer (if it still 8-4) and the other issue is injecting western "values" so not to offend.  I'm specifically talking about the changing of crosses and the censoring of a character in DQ9 physical appearance. I'm sure there's more but I don't remember them at the moment.

When I play a game made by a Japanese company its partially to escape the current lameness and thinskinness of the US culture. The more DQ is sanitized, the more cookie cutter it becomes. I don't care about SJWizm and I refuse to be forced to care. Oh, and keep on whaling!

Just in case this is TL;DR, here is everything I said in a nutshell:

Get woke, go broke.

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58 minutes ago, Tom-Servo said:

Ugh don't me started on this. Oh well too late. If you are easily offended please look away. :)

So I'm guessing what happened is the following:

Some nothing loser video game "journalist" NPC combs what xe considers far-right Japanese TV show for dirt to gain notoriety. Maybe it is far right but it's hard to get an objective look at things in another language, and I don't trust most "journalist". Plus one of those a-holes dissed my DQ5r translations so their taste is clearly questionable!

Sugi baby said something bad about a protected class with a very powerful and rich lobbying group. (Bad move, should have said it about white straight males, you'd be a hero!)

Said group agitates cowardly video game corporation. Corporation bends over and apologies like a #$*!.


Dragon Quest has 99 problems, but Sugiyama isn't one of them. Most of the 99 is the shitty localizer (if it still 8-4) and the other issue is injecting western "values" so not to offend.  I'm specifically talking about the changing of crosses and the censoring of a character in DQ9 physical appearance. I'm sure there's more but I don't remember them at the moment.

When I play a game made by a Japanese company its partially to escape the current lameness and thinskinness of the US culture. The more DQ is sanitized, the more cookie cutter it becomes. I don't care about SJWizm and I refuse to be forced to care. Oh, and keep on whaling!

Just in case this is TL;DR, here is everything I said in a nutshell:

Get woke, go broke.

Calls an imaginary straw man journalist an NPC but ends their post with the phrase “get woke, go broke” like everyone else that calls someone an NPC, assumes they’re trans (as if this is a knock against them) and uses xe pronouns to make fun of them, and says Square Enix are cowards for “apologizing” (“the views of an individual do not reflect the views or efforts of the company,” saying they don’t condone discrimination, and making no comment about cutting ties with Sugiyama is considered an apology, I guess). Oh, and hasn’t posted in almost two years but wants us to believe they “don’t care about SJWizm and I refuse to be forced to care” after making a decently long post about it. ...okay, makes sense.

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23 hours ago, Mefista said:

I immediately disliked Sylvia cause of his face, he looked annoying. And lo, annoying he turned out to be.

 

6CE5F767-CD39-4668-AF5E-5D716440A162.jpeg

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Some nothing loser video game "journalist" NPC combs what xe considers far-right Japanese TV show for dirt to gain notoriety.

I first heard about Sugiyama being a part of the Washington Post advertisement from a random comment by Jeremy Parish. That was back in 2007. Can't say if he's patient zero, but he often writes about DQ. He eventually wrote an article and it slowly snowballed ever since. I started seeing it pop up more and more. Not from players, but yes, from journalists. Was it news? Yeah. Was it relevant news? I don't know. Like I said, Suigiyama has never associated his views with the Dragon Quest brand. It's awful, but nothing I would've reported on. Though sometimes it's good when things like this are reported on so misinformation can snuffed out. ...Then again, I see so many articles that blatantly ignore facts. All the more reason to research and come to your own conclusion.

Sugiyama's views stem from the typical nationalist "Japan is perfect and does no wrong" mentality. Only amped up to Ultra Instinct level. When Japan itself thinks his views are too extreme, yeah, that's a problem. Sugiyama was pushing revisionist history hard. He was saying extreme acts of violence and forced prostitution never happened, when they had long been documented and even acknowledged by the Japanese government. Not only does he thinks these events never existed, he believes they're all tall tales made up by us gorgeous red-blooded Americans to smear them.

It's unclear if Sugiyama was always so passionate about this. The Washington Post advertisement was apparently his idea. His stance is given no more weight than Flat Earther or holocaust denier. The real facts far outweigh those with similar beliefs. There's not a chance of them convincing anyone. I'd no idea he even had a TV show, so if he was such a monster, you'd think we'd hear more about it.

That was pretty much it for the past decade. The shitstorm really didn't start until a random fan on Twitter recorded and subtitled the interview. A better translation was posted later. Kiwi Farms content generator ResetEra heard about the interview on his show, flailed its arms, and began calling for his death. No, really. While their reaction was over the top, there were legitimate reasons to be upset. Sugiyama was laughing with a politician over LGBT suicide rates. The suicide rate in Japan is disturbing alone, and I'm sure it's much worse for LGBT folks in a more conservative nation. This interview went beyond forgivable ignorance. It was heartless.

So where do we go from here? We all know he has these views. Do we keep bringing it up with every release? What good does that do? The western audience can't nag Horii and Square Enix into dropping Sugiyama. They're not going to pretend 30 years of work, music that defined the franchise, garnered numerous accolades, made history, and the millions earned from all the soundtracks and concerts was for nothing.

Let's say Horii and Square Enix do try to push him out or give him a window job. Sugiyama will fight back. And win! He owns all the music. One one hand, It's an unprecedented victory for creator rights. On the other, his strict licensing control is hurting the series. We're not hearing many symphonic compositions overseas. It's too expensive. He wants so much that people can't stream some of the games. Square Enix would have to buy his entire catalogue. Every piece of music. Every single composition wherever it appears, games, albums, concerts, etc. His contract would have to be renegotiated, because I'm sure he has several clauses for all of that, plus his involvement in future titles and ventures. And that's if he'd even be willing. It would cost millions. The company probably wouldn't be able to afford it or the time it would take to earn it back would make it not worth the trouble. So yeah, I'd have PR toss out an apology too!

Sugiyama is a cog in a massive machine. He will always be a part of it. Personally, I don't find it fair to the countless producers, writers, artists, designers, coders, testers, and everything inbetween. While I certainly don't agree with views, they don't pose a direct threat to anyone. Some people don't shop at Walmart. Some people won't eat at Chick-fil-A. If you don't want to buy the games, it's your choice. Make it and move on. REEEing on ResetEra isn't changing anything. Take that money and support an artist you love. Donate to a reputable charity for LGBT, suicide prevention, war relief, or rape victims. Or all of the above.

Quote

Plus one of those a-holes dissed my DQ5r translations so their taste is clearly questionable!

Dragon Quest has 99 problems, but Sugiyama isn't one of them. Most of the 99 is the shitty localizer (if it still 8-4) and the other issue is injecting western "values" so not to offend.  I'm specifically talking about the changing of crosses and the censoring of a character in DQ9 physical appearance. I'm sure there's more but I don't remember them at the moment.

That was the head of 8-4. He looked at a couple screen shots and trashed it on a forum. Didn't even play it. That's why I don't support 8-4.

The localization staff they have now is great. The sheer volume Shloc has done in the past few years has been amazing. Quality stuff. They even went in and touched up DQ VI. And I'm glad there are good people working at the company now who are dedicated to the game's success. The crosses were changed to the Goddess symbol back in VIII and have been implemented in all of the games. I'm OK with it. It fits. Plus I'm OK with changing a face to avoid another PR nightmare. (Remember Oil Man in Megaman Powered Up? Oh, Capcom... You know everyone in the US office was like, "Why? Whyyyyyy?!")

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15 minutes ago, Dwaine said:

The localization staff they have now is great. The sheer volume Shloc has done in the past few years has been amazing. Quality stuff. They even went in and touched up DQ VI. And I'm glad there are good people working at the company now who are dedicated to the game's success. The crosses were changed to the Goddess symbol back in VIII and have been implemented in all of the games. I'm OK with it. It fits. Plus I'm OK with changing a face to avoid another PR nightmare. (Remember Oil Man in Megaman Powered Up? Oh, Capcom... You know everyone in the US office was like, "Why? Whyyyyyy?!")

Are they the ones who translated the 3DS version of DQ7? If so, they did an amazing job with that game’s new translation. Some name changes I was ehhhhh on, but otherwise everything they did was excellent.

Are there any specifics to what they touched up in DQ6 mobile? Just party chat dialogue or everything?

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Are they the ones who translated the 3DS version of DQ7? If so, they did an amazing job with that game’s new translation. Some name changes I was ehhhhh on, but otherwise everything they did was excellent.
Are there any specifics to what they touched up in DQ6 mobile? Just party chat dialogue or everything?
Agreed!

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Yes, Shloc has done everything since DQ Heroes. The head was an editor and collaborator on everything since VIII. I'm not sure how much they touched up on VI. But yeah, Shloc localized all five languages. That's why I don't like it when people come down on the series because of Sugiyama. These people worked damn hard and it obviously means a lot to them. These are the ones people should reach out to and say thank you.

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Edited by Dwaine

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7 minutes ago, Dwaine said:

Yes, Shloc has done everything since DQ Heroes. The head was an editor and collaborator on everything since VIII. I'm not sure how much they touched up on VI. But yeah, Shloc localized all five languages. That's why I don't like it when people come down on the series because of Sugiyama. These people worked damn hard and it obviously means a lot to them. These are the ones people should reach out to and say thank you.

 

If there’s a way to contact them I’d be happy to send them an email or something. Their translations are excellent and give the series some wonderful written dialogue and moments. That’s always been the best part of DQ: the quality of the writing. Shloc really captures that in all their work they’ve done thus far.

Edited by YangustheLegendaryBandit

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Ugh I don't know how to use this new fangled forum, like quote selectively n #$*!.

Dwaine thanks for the wordy response, it saved me a ton of time researching and your even handedness. I usually just seem to trigger people 😛. Mission accomplished!

Yeah I did recall that Japan has an ultra nationalistic can do no wrong streak. The comment was pretty nasty and the reaction calling for his death was really not the best approach to changing hearts and minds either.  Just annoying that video games has to put up with the mixing of whatever politics that someone does on their own time.

And what what 8-4 is gone? No one told me that. :(  I may just have to get back into the game. What new DQ titles are out that aren't translated with a 2nd grader in mind?

I'm still contemplating inserting party chat into DW4 NES, though my spare time kinda sucks nowadays.

 

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4 hours ago, Tom-Servo said:

Ugh I don't know how to use this new fangled forum, like quote selectively n #$*!.

Dwaine thanks for the wordy response, it saved me a ton of time researching and your even handedness. I usually just seem to trigger people 😛. Mission accomplished!

Yeah I did recall that Japan has an ultra nationalistic can do no wrong streak. The comment was pretty nasty and the reaction calling for his death was really not the best approach to changing hearts and minds either.  Just annoying that video games has to put up with the mixing of whatever politics that someone does on their own time.

And what what 8-4 is gone? No one told me that. :(  I may just have to get back into the game. What new DQ titles are out that aren't translated with a 2nd grader in mind?

I'm still contemplating inserting party chat into DW4 NES, though my spare time kinda sucks nowadays.

 

@Tom-Servo I just sent you a PM...

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13 hours ago, Tom-Servo said:

And what what 8-4 is gone? No one told me that. :(  I may just have to get back into the game. What new DQ titles are out that aren't translated with a 2nd grader in mind?

I'm still contemplating inserting party chat into DW4 NES, though my spare time kinda sucks nowadays.

They were never really here. Nintendo brought them in for VI. DQ games are written for everyone, but watch a couple of DQ Heroes videos. They got the voices spot on. I'd say check out XI, but I still haven't played it!

Shloc put the party chat back into DQ IV mobile. I really liked the project we were working on. It'd be great to see that completed some day.

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He’s an old man. Too far gone to change his views. His political views and his ability to compose music are seprate entities.

Its like mr. popo/stereotypes and Toriyama. Racist caricatures but it’s not the focus of the show.

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9 hours ago, slimeborgi said:

He’s an old man. Too far gone to change his views. His political views and his ability to compose music are seprate entities.

Its like mr. popo/stereotypes and Toriyama. Racist caricatures but it’s not the focus of the show.

Well, while true, Mr. Popo is not a black stereotype.  He's a hindu sub-deity...kind of like a djinn.

Toriyama's version of black people:

General_Black.gif

latest?cb=20131123225126

maxresdefault.jpg

 

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People taking extreme offense to Sugiyama's personal politics to the point where they hate the music out of spite make up the tiniest portion of gamers who even know what Dragon Quest is. I don't think they make any type of impact at all, and their arguments that try to connect musical quality and game quality to politics are completely trivial.

If the actual quality of the compositions for mainline DQ games have wavered recently it's because the man is extremely old and is well past his prime as a composer. This is evidenced further by his or the developer's willingness to reuse tracks from older games in larger quantities rather than use new compositions: beginning with DQVIII and gradually increasing to the numerous reused compositions found in DQXI.

Bottom line: Hate the guy. That's fine. I don't agree with his views either. But his views have nothing to do with the music composition, the music quality or the game. If you don't play DQ because of the music composer's personal politics that's entirely your choice and your loss.

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On 12/30/2018 at 8:52 PM, ignasia said:

Well, while true, Mr. Popo is not a black stereotype.  He's a hindu sub-deity...kind of like a djinn.

Toriyama's version of black people:

General_Black.gif

latest?cb=20131123225126

maxresdefault.jpg

 

Even worse, that third character talks in a way that you can’t understand a word he’s saying in the show.  Toriyama has his own share of racist #$*! in his works but you will never see all these brain dead Dragon Ball fans calling him out.  Sugiyama is a very easy target for all these media outlets that already want to see DQ fail.

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Posted (edited)

@Sackchief  How is it racist that a specific characters LOCALIZATION is that speaks like he's from Louisiana?  He speaks creole, which is a common language in that area (spoken by whites and blacks there alike)?  That's just pick a place in real life where he could be from and go with that.  Nevermind that Toriyama himself is not likely to be involved in the localization process, especially given how much is altered from the original story.

If you went to Louisiana, met a native black man who speaks Creole, are you going to tell him it's racist for him to speak Creole, and it's some hidden white agenda to keep that black man down?  Are you actually going to suggest that?  Do you realize the implications on yourself of what this would suggest?  I don't think you would, because I think you would realize that question is inherently prejudiced.

I haven't seen anything remotely racist from Toriyama.  You do know what the definition means right?  Or are you just hyped up because aspects of Japan's views of the outside world are backwards, without realizing it's due to lack of exposure that's only recently changed within like the last 20 years?   Right?

racism

 noun
rac·ism | \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-  \

Definition of racism 

 

1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2a: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles

b: a political or social system founded on racism

3: racial prejudice or discrimination

I'm not seeing anything in any of toriyama's works that indicate racial superiority.  Stereotypes sure, and making fun of stereotypes, sure, but mostly with Dr. Slump, his earliest works.  However you'd have to point to a single one that actually qualifies as actual racism, as I don't see it.  He makes fun of Japanese people as much as he does white people, super heroes, anti-heroes, etc.  It's even done in a fashion where he's more having fun poking fun at ridiculous inverse versions of reality for the heck of it, not from any prejudicial perspective.

I see nothing of the sort in DBZ indicating HE is racist.  Now if you want to say Commander Red is racist in the Red Ribbon Army arc, that's an argument that can be made, but that's a character, and one could also say Commander Black was his most trusted advisor and his issue was height differential, not racial superiority.  Especially given Red has an inferiority complex surrounding his height.  However given the events that proceed Red's death, Black is treated as competent, just evil, and nothing about him is treated as inferior due to race.

I'm not seeing anything in Toriyama's works as prejudicial at all, or remotely discriminating.

Nor any particular doctrines or diatribes within his work or his interviews based on race.

---

So sackchief, where's the beef?  Where's the example?  Your opening point says more about your own race obsession, not Toriyama's.

Edited by ignasia

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I think he was alluding to the drawings with the giant pink lips looking somewhat like characters from old minstrel shows.

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Liamland said:

I think he was alluding to the drawings with the giant pink lips looking somewhat like characters from old minstrel shows.

That's a good point, but I don't see it as racism, so much as Toriyama's take on large lips, and exposure to blacks likely being they have large lips, even if only certain segments of the black population, especially anyone from sub-Saharan Africa do, while most other groups do not.

Just because something looks like something doesn't make it that something.  In this case it's likely he doesn't want to learn how to drawn lips.  There are literally only two variations for Toriyama.  Large, as above, and none.  So given the simplicity and range, it's just a matter of drawing style and not any form of prejudice.

Still begs the question of intent, and I'm not seeing anything, so where's the beef?

Edited by ignasia

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^ He probably just thinks DBZ fans suck. I feel the same way of plenty of fandoms. I’m sure we all do.

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I see what you mean ignasia and I’ll admit I was wrong about that now that I think about it. And yes I do kind of hate the majority of the DBZ fanbase haha.

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Like Insignia said. Intent. Those Dragon Ball characters were created over 25 years ago. Toriyama will design a character with big lips, but he's been applying it to a lot of different types of faces. Japan is just now getting around to realizing that's considered a negative depiction.

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