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NeoDevilbane

Connections between Dragon Quests post-DQ VI?

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In the story, I mean. Obviously I-III is the Erdrick trilogy and IV-VI is "the Celestial Trilogy" (and can someone tell me exactly how IV connects to V and VI?)... there are no connections between VII, VIII, and IX, right? Or are there? If so, what? I'm really curious. One of the things I always loved about the DQ/DW games over the Final Fantasy games was how there was some continuance between games, and a sense of a saga.

I also see stuff about XI being a prequel to DQ III. Is that true?

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I think DQVIII is linked to III. There’s some evidence.

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4 hours ago, Sackchief said:

I think DQVIII is linked to III. There’s some evidence.

I read that Ramia is linked to it, the bird. Was that it?

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I read that Ramia is linked to it, the bird. Was that it?

Ramia and the orbs you need to gather heavily hint at it. Erdrick’s token is supposedly designed after Ramia.

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The Manga adaptation of DQVII claims that it is set in a far future of DQII. Kiefer being the descendant of DQII's Prince of Midenhall. The game also hints that since you can find a sword reaaally similar to Erdrick's sword (having the same stats too) in Melyor's Castle. 

If I recall correctly -which may not be the case-, in DQVIII the God Bird, Empyrea, says that she is known as Ramia in another world. Ramia being the God Bird that hatches in DQIII. Then again, the God Bird design changes from games to its remakes, making it rather difficult to know for sure what's canon. Like, the GBC remake of DQIII depicts Ramia as a peacock-like bird, while any other representation of her depicts her as she appears in DQVIII (and the Battle Road series game).

I'd even say that the Joker series is happening in a far future of DQVII (since, as aforementioned, it'd happen centuries after DQII). Description of some monsters, like Atlas ("Once opposed a certain trio of warriors while in the service of Hargon"), Dargonlord ("This monarch spoken in ancient lore was once bested by the legendary dragon warrior") or Orgodemir ("In ages past, he sought to become a god") makes it sounds as if those games (DQI, II, III, and VII) happened ages ago, but in this world. 

There are even pieces of evidence as to why the Joker series is not happening in a far future of the Zenith trilogy with the description of the Alabast Dragon: "This regal deity is known as the Zenith dragon on another plane of existence"). Plus, the "Tachyon Sphere" if I recall, if very similar in its design to the sphere of light's seen in DQIII and I. Tho of course, it could simply easter eggs of nodes to previous games. 

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It's my personal theory that the Ultimate Magic Zeppel was searching for in VII was somehow linked with the Secret of Evolution from IV, and that the Lefans are descendants of the Zenithians.

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On 12/2/2018 at 6:04 AM, Xiggy said:

The Manga adaptation of DQVII claims that it is set in a far future of DQII. Kiefer being the descendant of DQII's Prince of Midenhall. The game also hints that since you can find a sword reaaally similar to Erdrick's sword (having the same stats too) in Melyor's Castle. 

If I recall correctly -which may not be the case-, in DQVIII the God Bird, Empyrea, says that she is known as Ramia in another world. Ramia being the God Bird that hatches in DQIII. Then again, the God Bird design changes from games to its remakes, making it rather difficult to know for sure what's canon. Like, the GBC remake of DQIII depicts Ramia as a peacock-like bird, while any other representation of her depicts her as she appears in DQVIII (and the Battle Road series game).

I'd even say that the Joker series is happening in a far future of DQVII (since, as aforementioned, it'd happen centuries after DQII). Description of some monsters, like Atlas ("Once opposed a certain trio of warriors while in the service of Hargon"), Dargonlord ("This monarch spoken in ancient lore was once bested by the legendary dragon warrior") or Orgodemir ("In ages past, he sought to become a god") makes it sounds as if those games (DQI, II, III, and VII) happened ages ago, but in this world. 

There are even pieces of evidence as to why the Joker series is not happening in a far future of the Zenith trilogy with the description of the Alabast Dragon: "This regal deity is known as the Zenith dragon on another plane of existence"). Plus, the "Tachyon Sphere" if I recall, if very similar in its design to the sphere of light's seen in DQIII and I. Tho of course, it could simply easter eggs of nodes to previous games. 

Manga adaptation I'm not familiar with, so I'll take your word for it.  However if it does say that and Horii had actual input, I would dismiss it as it's not possible for that to be the case.

1) the creator of 2's world, Alefgard (which is both the name of the island and the whole world from what I can tell), is Rubiss.

2) the creator of 7's world, which has no given name, is God.  There is nothing in the lore that would suggest anything else.

3) that doesn't mean that Kiefer's family did not somehow come from Alefgard and warp into 7's world sometime in the past.  We already know Estard isn't nearly as old as most of the other kingdoms, as some do not recognize it.  So that is possible, but nothing in the actual game suggests this, or even hints at it.

What sword are you talking about in Dragon Quest VII?  The only castles with Swords you can find in DQVII are Gracos', with the Rippled Rapier, which looks and functions nothing like Erdrick's Sword (though is has similar attack stats if we're comparing DQ2's Erdrick's Sword), the Kings Blade in Estard Castle, which looks and functions nothing like Erdrick's Sword (though it's the closest sword in DQ7 to Erdrick's Blade, and is FAR in excess of power even comparing Erdrick's Sword in DQ2 to the Thunder Sword in DQ2 and Kingsblade to Okeanos Sword), and the Okeanos Sword in Orgodemir's palace, the strongest sword in the game, but it too is not relatable to Erdrick's Sword at all (it's special function is nothing like Erdrick's Sword in any appearance except maybe the FF12 easter egg Wyvern Hero's Blade).

Looking through all the different weapons, nothing either looks like Erdrick's Sword, nor functions like ANY version of the weapon from 1, 2, or 3.

Also...what place are you referring to with the name "Melyor", as I can't find any reference to that, nor place it.  I'm assuming a transliteration.

My point being there is no reference in DQ7 to DQ2 at all.  Horii himself stated DQ7 is a stand alone world, and the context of the world of 7 has nothing in common with 1~3.  There's no Rubiss either.  There is a Sea King, which correlates somewhat to DQ6's Poseidon, but not directly, even in function.

Rubiss is in DQ6 however, and the remakes of DQ3 have Zenithia, though in that sense it's implied Zenith is a spiritual overseer and thus it's castle is present in all worlds.  Rubiss' function in DQ6 is more of an overseer than a Creator/God-like figure.  It's never implied by her that she is the creator, only a spirit that lives underwater that needed to awaken the Hero so Murdaw could be defeated and the Hero was the only one with the power.

----

What are you basing Joker being tied into 7?  That wouldn't fit at all.  Hell, even Caravan Heart and the original DQM suggest the monster's worlds are distinct worlds tied into the mainline worlds.

Your usage of descriptions makes no sense.  They're talking about the DQ historical context, and that would also include the other bosses present, such as Psaro.  You're cherry picking what bosses you want tied in together to force a narrative that you want.  That's fine, but it's not accurate, as ALL the bosses present in the Joker series make the same bloody references to their history and actions in their own original respective games.  The point being we ignore that as it has no context or meaning in lieu of Joker's world itself and any direct connection to that world or interconnectivity in a literal sense between DQ worlds, as we would be ignoring any and all context, any and all statements made prior by Horii, such as 11 is connected to 1~3, but nothing was or has ever been even hinted at that 7 is...let alone 4~6 being connected, and his statements made when creating 7 and after 7's release that 7 was a stand alone world, and the same with 8, with the hints in 8 that the only connection between 3 and 8 is Ramia and Ramia outright indicates she came from a DIFFERENT WORLD, and the Ragnar + Torneko semi-easter egg implying they're from a completely different world, and the start of Monsters 1, 2, and even Caravan Heart indicating a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WORLD.

8's ties into 3 are based on a similar theme.  Ramia is able to traverse worlds and connect to worlds.  This was first presented in DQ3, where the underworld is tied into the overworld through Zoma's ripping a hole between them, and once he's defeated, there is no connection, meaning it was not a literal underworld, but only served as such due to magic.  That Alefgard is indeed its own world, its own universe, with its own sun and moon, and was only sealed off from its normal course due to Zoma taking over.  So worlds are tied by magic and portals, but they are separate worlds.

The easter eggs do exist to indicate there are portals between worlds, and some people know how to access them, such as Mori and his ability to communicate with Torneko and Ragnar, and that both of them have been back and forth.  Then with the Heroes games, and again the Monsters series.

There really isn't much more than that between worlds.

1~3+11+Builders 1+2 is one world.  4+5 is one world, 6 is spiritually connected to 4+5, 7 is its own world, 8 is its own world, 9 is its own world.  Joker 1+2 is its own world, Joker 3 is its own world, Monsters 1+2+Caravan is its own world, Heroes 1 is its own world, Heroes 2 is its own world.

 

All worlds are interconnected dimensionally, and many have their own dark-world, where it's distinct depending on the world:

 

1) 3's dark world is not a true dark world, it was forced into that position by Zoma's power

2) 4 and 5's dark world is a literal underworld, with a literal physical presence, though in 5 it takes on some distinct form in terms of taking its own space almost like an alternative universe, and yet it's physical.

3) 6's dark world is a subspace of reality created in Morty's mind and manifested into reality due to his power, and thus it changes on his whim, and cannot exist without him.

4) 7's dark world is like 4 and 5's in that it's a literal real underground world that is dug out of the dirt, and like 5, also has subspacial special properties, and there are alternative dimensions as per the post game dungeons.

5) 8's dark world is a mirror world that is a physical place, but is a dimensional world on the other side of a coin, existing on top of the normal world, only everything is literally black and white.  Totally new and cool concept.

6) 9's doesn't have a dark world, much like 1, 2, and 11 does not.  However 11 does have a series of testing grounds that function similarly to a dark world, that were crafted by the good guys as a permanent testing place.  However this wouldn't carry into the Erdrick trilogy.

 

I'm sorry I'm getting pissy, but I get really pet peevy when people start making #$*! up whole cloth to fit what they want.  I get hints and drawing conclusions based on subtle nuance, but that's different.  I get getting #$*! wrong at times because I do that a lot, but in this case, no.  I mean if you want to write fan fiction and claim it as your own creation to connect storylines together, sure, knock yourself out.  This however is gross misrepresentation of the story and that drives me up the bloody wall nuts.  So not asking to excuse my behaviour, just saying for me it's like someone taking a fork to a chalk board over and over and over and over again.  So for me, this is a tame approach. 

So I apologize for being a total dick in my presentation.

=====

@NeoDevilbane a few things

1) Yes 11 is a prequel to 3's storyline.  This was stated in Japan and the initial interviews in the US/EU prior to the game's release in both territories.  It's not exactly a secret.  Just don't ask how, and play the game to find out.  The how is the biggest reveal.

2) 4 and 5's world are directly connected.  However they're thousands of years apart.  They both have Esturk as their original big bad. They both have the secret of evolution as the core basis for growth.   They both have distinct landmarks.  Zenithia tower + Zenith castle + Zenith Dragon.  Zenith tower is in the same physical location in both games...roughly, with the center island in 5 being substantially larger than in 4.  The underworld access dungeon in 4 leading to the lowest point is replaced by the tallest mountain in the world, leading to the highest point, but in 5, like with 4, it's a place of abject evil, and a direct link to the dark lord in 5 in a physical sense, so that is an interesting link and one has to wonder what happened...maybe Zenith Dragon filled in the dungeon then pilled on as much dirt as possible to seal off the physical access route, thus 5's only access to the underworld is a portal.

There are three other direct linking elements.  OH, right, the nature of the Zenithian equipment.  Their form, design, and function.  Much like Erdrick's equipment they look similar (only DQ2 has some odd changes like how weak Erdrick's equipment is).

6 however, is not directly connected to either 4 or 5.  It does take place in the past, and they both have Zenithia, only the translators intentionally distinguish it by calling 4+5 Zenithia, due to the Zenith Dragon, and that Zenithia in 4 and 5 are PHYSICAL presences that imply a single castle in a single continuous world, and Cloudsgate whenever King Zenith is running the roost, and it's a purely Spiritual castle that interconnects all realms.

6's hero equipment is also distinct from 4 and 5.  The Zenithian Equipment looks like a redesign but lacks the same functionality.  Such equipment wouldn't change form and design for 4, then remain identical for some odd reason for several thousands of years.  That just makes no sense.  Especially when the connection to Cloudsgate Castle is a spiritual portal to the Spiritual realm, not a check at the top of the tower for the inhabitants (see: Zenith Dragon) to assure the hero is worthy by gaining all the Zenithian Equipment.

6's world is also metaphysical in nature, and the bad guy is metaphysical in nature, being a natural demon lord, rather than a being who uses a physical process to perfect himself.  Even his world in 6 is purely of his mind.

The connection to 6 from 4+5 is that 6's world is free of blight, and Zenithia's Dragon's birth heralds a new dawn of a split in the castle's nature from a pure spiritual overseer that links between worlds (as seen in 3), to a physical castle that oversees a single world.  The disappearance of the castle from 6's world even after the birth of the dragon implies the castle emerges physically in a completely different realm.

The nature of this meaning that 6 in terms of time is prior to 4 and 5, but in terms of relationship, are only spiritually connected.  The reason for this is Yuji Horii indicated he wanted to move away from trilogies when making 4~6, so made the links tenuous compared to 1~3 which are direct.  When he made 7 however, he wanted to completely split off from that format, so 7 was made a standalone world.  There are easter eggs though.

Oh right, there is one prophecy in 6 that alludes to the world of 4+5, and the remake of 6 has a special village where you can tie-in later on with characters from 4 or 5 by choosing to make that village like those future scenarios.  So the remake does emphasize the connectivity, but again, it's spiritual more than literal physical.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, ignasia said:

So not asking to excuse my behaviour [...] So I apologize for being a total dick in my presentation.

You absolutely don't have to apologize. Heck, I can understand your point quite easily. ^^

The Joker thing... Yeah the more I think about it, the more far-fetched it feels to me too. Dumb move from me, I'll give you that. I've realized that trying to see connections between games when it's just cameo or easter eggs is not that smart. Like, I know there's a sword in FFXII that resembles Erdrick's sword but linking this game to the DQ lore... Yeah, I'll pass. Just like I doubt the classic characters appearing in IX are the actual characters, but more likely ways to obtains their garbs and clothes. 

Some of those things I've said were stuff I could gather from the auto-translated pages of the Japanese Wikia (https://wikiwiki.jp/dqdic3rd/ this one most of the time), and I might have understood them sideways, due to the rather approximate translation.

About the sword, I was referring to this one: 王者のつるぎ (Kingsblade) from VII, which do bare a similar look (at least to me, the blade part specifically) to this one from III:  おうじゃのけん (Swords of Kings) as both of them, in these respective games, boost the attack by +120. But then again, I can understand people not seeing any resemblance. It's not as striking as Ramia's Sword and Zenith Sword for example.

Now, of course, I should assume that the canon of the DQ lore varies from people to people. Since the DQ universe hasn't been set in stones unlike the Zelda one, it can cause different point of views. If you take into account the games and just the games then the only games that are connected to each other would be XI, I, II, III, and Builder (and maybe CH since you visit II's world). 

However if you take into account books published by Enix and said to be the official past of some games like this one: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ドラゴンクエスト_精霊ルビス伝説 "Dragon Quest - Spirit Rubiss Legend" ('However, Enix at the time recognized this work as a positive history, and the history described in this work is considered to be the official setting of the Dragon Quest series."), and everything supervised by Yuji Hori, like Emblem of Roto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Quest_Retsuden:_Roto_no_Monshō), its sequel and the third wheel, the manga adaptation of DQVII, then it becomes possible to make some links between different games. It'll always be speculation and theory at best tho since the canon can vary. 

Again, you absolutely don't have to apologize for speaking your mind. I should be the one apologizing for not being more cautious or precise in December when I posted my message. ^^

Edited by Xiggy
added more stuff
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Protip for myself: stop eating sugar.  I cut it out of my diet almost entirely, and starting eating it again for coffee....if I mix Sugar in the Raw with Heavy Cream (love Coffee with Heavy Cream), and my Chocolate Pinon Coffee, it's like dining in heaven.  It's soooo good.  Plus Sugar in the Raw + Heavy Cream, when mixed tastes almost exactly like Creme Brulee with little effort.  I don't know why, but the molassus must play a role.  In anycase, I get a little pissy on sugar.  So that adds a whole lot of extra stupid to the recipe.  For that I further apologize, especially as I did not take into account when you wrote your initial post Xiggy.

Yeah, there is some similarity in the hilt with the King's sword, and a little in the shape of the blade, but it's not quite an exact copy.  Hmm...interesting.  So I'm not 100% sure if this is original Toriyama artwork, except that the sword of Destruction IS original:

 

kings_sword.png

 

So I'll assume this is the original artwork for the Sword of Kings, the precursor original form of Erdrick's Sword before further embellishment.

Now, one thing I find interesting is that this looks more like Erdrick's Sword in terms of the hilt being curved, and the straight lines at the edges of the hilt on both sides.

However, a few interesting things.  The design aesthetic in the original DQ7 was rehashed for DQ11's revision of the Sword of Kings:

kings_sword.png

DQ7 3DS, from this site...the menu icon that shows up in the equipment list:

kingsblade.png

Though it looks a bit different...let me see if I can't pull that up here from DQ7 3DS when actually equipped:

D6_a_mtUYAAwGz-.jpg:large

There we go!

Yeah there are similarities and differences.  Let me see if I can't find DQ11's alteration of the original DQ3 design.  Have to use my own:

D6_beEzUcAAiY4y.jpg:large

So there are differences, but they certainly went out of their way to make the Kingsblade look nearly identical to the Sword of Kings.  Then went a step further and made sure the Sword of Kings looks even more like the Kingsblade.

So it seems like while DQ7 was initially set to be a stand alone game, the manga definitely influenced elements of connectivity.  Plus, as you state all versions of this weapon, including the DQ11 version, are exactly 120 Atk power.  Only the Kingsblade has no special function (in either version of DQ7).  However in DQ11 it gives +32 Charm and in DQ7 +55 Style.  So similar and different all at once.  Creating connectivity but not direct connectivity, kind of like, as you pointed out, the Sword of Ramias and the Zenith Sword, which are similar but distinct (Ramias is more similar in function however to the Okeanos Sword).

Swordoframias6.jpg

Zenithian_Sword.png

 

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1 hour ago, ignasia said:

For that I further apologize, especially as I did not take into account when you wrote your initial post Xiggy.

And again, you don't have to. There's no beef between us. 😁

 

1 hour ago, ignasia said:

So it seems like while DQ7 was initially set to be a stand alone game, the manga definitely influenced elements of connectivity

That's exactly what I mean, yep. It doesn't change what Horii said when he made the game. Nods and references are presents in every game, and it's my belief that the manga author seeing some of them decided after the initial work release, that it could/would nice to see them connected. The game still functions on its own really, as there are no really connection to any of the first three DQ. It's really the extended universe that connects them. 

The novel version and manga version of DQVII expand the initial game and add some stuff that weren't there un the game. Kinda like what official Doctor Who novel adaptation of episodes do (The Day of the Doctor for example, which see the Curator having much more scenes), or the DW comics, who ties some story lines together, when the TV stories weren't connected, or simply gives more importance to some characters that were seen just once (like the War Doctor and the 9th Doctor). And now I'm realizing that this is all gibberish of you don't watch the show. x) 

Oh and should you one day want to look for the chapters and volumes that display the connections between DQII and VII, it's in the 10th and 11th volumes of the manga. It's in Japanese, sadly, but the DQ specialized  Japanese wikia can be translated thanks to the navigator, and certainly helps figuring out what's going on. Or I can always send the passages right in your pm should you like to see 'em. ^^

Well, without further ado, i' m off watching the last of the horrendous GoT season 8 episode. \o

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