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Reddragon18

Dragon Warrior 7 vs DQ7?

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This thread is great because it draws out so many thoughts about being a Dragon Quest fan. They've done TONS of remakes of their games on different platforms, which have allowed people like me to enjoy them in different forms. I'm going to just take a second to appreciate this.

 

...Okay, with that out of the way, I have to actually analyze the question at hand. I can't really get into which game is in fact a better game because I don't think I have the technical knowledge and skill to do a breakdown and comparison. I will say that with the depth and class system, the PS1 version was not only ahead of it's time, but probably the deepest console game around. Unfortunately, I didn't get to play it upon release and bought it later from amazon. I played it and enjoyed it A TON.

Some years later, I got to experience the game with some major and minor tweaks on the 3DS. Still a fantastic game, and in addition, I got to take it with me and save whenever and wherever I wanted (for the most part). I had an absolutely amazing time and loved every bit of it. The portability and quick-save features were an absolute godsend for a busy guy like me. 

Without getting too deep, I'll say this:

Dragon Warrior VII on the PS1 was indeed masterful and was the better game, due largely to its originality.

Dragon Quest VII was a better game for me personally, because it allowed me to enjoy the experience in a way that fit well into my life. 

 

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Oh absolutely I get the portability and how games fit into people’s time. However, I’m not in the position yet that I don’t have super limited time to play games. I’m 17, and still have plenty of free time. I think 7 on the DS fits better for people who are adults and are busier with life and don’t have the time to play the PS1 version. However, the problem I have is most people who I tried to have a discussion about this with IMMEDIATELY #$*! and push away the PS1 version without giving it a chance. I respect people’s time and life, however, I don’t believe games should be stripped down just to fit their needs because there busy. But, this is an equal case: “Want a longer, non linear, more complex game? Play the PS1 version, Want a faster streamlined easier expierence? The DS version is for you.” So I like that we have two options fitting for both sides. Unfortunately other series have suffered majorly from this issue and have not found good balance.

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23 hours ago, Reddragon18 said:

Oh absolutely I get the portability and how games fit into people’s time. However, I’m not in the position yet that I don’t have super limited time to play games. I’m 17, and still have plenty of free time. I think 7 on the DS fits better for people who are adults and are busier with life and don’t have the time to play the PS1 version. However, the problem I have is most people who I tried to have a discussion about this with IMMEDIATELY #$*! and push away the PS1 version without giving it a chance. I respect people’s time and life, however, I don’t believe games should be stripped down just to fit their needs because there busy. But, this is an equal case: “Want a longer, non linear, more complex game? Play the PS1 version, Want a faster streamlined easier expierence? The DS version is for you.” So I like that we have two options fitting for both sides. Unfortunately other series have suffered majorly from this issue and have not found good balance.

Exactly. The fact that Dragon Quest is able to create remakes that allow a larger audience to enjoy their games in a way that fits is a win in my book. 

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Posted (edited)

Fully agree with the OP. 

 

Dragon Warrior 7 on the PS1 is easily the best game in the series and one of the best RPGs ever made. The 3DS remake is shamefully dumbed down and suffers for it. Hell, the 3DS remake is barely even worth playing because of how pathetically easy it is, there is no challenge to the game whatsoever and thus no reason to play it or enjoy it.

Edited by aweigh

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19 hours ago, aweigh said:

Fully agree with the OP. 

 

Dragon Warrior 7 on the PS1 is easily the best game in the series and one of the best RPGs ever made. The 3DS remake is shamefully dumbed down and suffers for it. Hell, the 3DS remake is barely even worth playing because of how pathetically easy it is, there is no challenge to the game whatsoever and thus no reason to play it or enjoy it.

 

Well, there is the challenge of making a Super Kiefer save, and exploit an easter egg with your other characters starting at level 1 from just prior to Alltrades, with some advantages (like all the DLC equipment obtained early, and a plethora of monster hearts)...to essentially create a perfect save where it's much easier to develop your own challenge.  Dharma/Alltrades at level 1 (done this a few times), is rather painful, even with the gear the game provides at that point through the Casino (and easier to exploit Lucky Panel).  Definitely allows for a rougher challenge than the original, especially if the Slimetree Forest map is exploited for class leveling.  Taking on Dune/Al-Balad as early as level 11 is REALLY rough going, especially as Seto's Massacre attack no longer targets himself, so it only hits your party members.

Plus the challenge of using Kiefer solo to obtain all the DLC items, nevermind getting him to level 99, especially with only one cartridge and relying on either DLC maps or player traded maps (abusing Slimetree Forest for trades), presents its own challenge, while allowing more usage of Kiefer than in the original game, more time spent with him for those who wish he stuck around.

Just to note, the main issue for the 3DS is the time gap in development.  They had to:

1) retool the original development kit for the 3DS

2) rebuild the entire PSX game from scratch for the Square-Enix servers, which took a lot longer than previous remakes given how much content was in the original game

 

They clearly had a lot of ambitions for DQ7 3DS to boot, so a lot of those elements went into the retooling for DLC connectivity and street pass functionality unique to DQ7 3DS and separate from the 3DS system's street pass functionality.

Each of the games as they released, once they rebuilt the game for SE's database, before remaking 4, 5, 6, and 7, game development actually started.  With 4~6 they clearly didn't require much retooling given DS architecture and capabilities weren't much different from the PS1, a bit more powerful, like buffers and some basic shaders, but overall not much more more powerful.   So you'd see this time window of each game, each being larger, going from 4~6, having larger and larger windows between first screens and release.  4 was like 5 months, 5 was like 6 months, 6 was like 1 year.  7, was 3 months.

The amount of grunt work and obvious time limitation combined with excessive workload and excessively ambitious additional content is probably the reason Arte Piazza took a 2+ year break from game development afterwards.  Something they had never done (at most a 6 month break).

Some of the telltale signs are spells in the game still, but unfinished, so unused, like Padfoot.  The size of hallways early game vs late game in general (some exceptions like the time room), where certain later game maps with narrow halls have lower spawn rates and larger distances from the party for new spawns, than earlier dungeons (Litorud/El Ciclo dungeon versus Engow/Emberdale's dungeon).

The obviously rushed temple and gravesites having simple buttons.

Certain bugs inherent to all versions.

The Japanese text and format code integrated into the game in a way the localization team couldn't figure out how to decouple it, or even decouple all language format codes, so all international releases load ALL format code and languages at the same time, thus the menu lag, but no lag in animations in battle, on maps, or moving around on maps.

The fast-track to the Monster Munchies early game, and even the overly simplistic changes to The Haven, compared to its original form.  Even the storyline surrounding Phlegmrique is surprisingly basic compared to even DQ4's town map, which they attempted to copy to some degree, and the implication for The Haven, was for a castle town at the end, not what we ended up with.

The fact that only certain DLC equipment shows up as player-made Tablet rewards, not all of it, and it's inconsistent as to which, that some of the new items are only available as tablet rewards, and there are a lot of unused DLC monsters.  That certain DLC monsters cannot be recruited.  The nature of tablet creation having certain limitations that suggest they didn't have time to account for ranges of monster types (most have only 3 of a single type, some 2, but a few have 4 and with the DLC groups, 5 and 6 of the same type, making it impossible to make a properly themed map of a single type, or even with multiple types, despite the DLC compositions often being thematically consistent).  That certain pieces of normal in-game equipment do not show up as Tablet rewards, and quite a few are repeated.

The nature of leveling tablet bosses, and what it does.  The simplistic nature of the tablet chest rewards.

Lack of properly tested balancing shifts.  Some were well thought through, like the lower tier breath attacks.  The changes to certain level-based skills, and using the same changes throughout was a very bad move.  One of Ruff's special attacks has no special function, and just does 100% damage, with no chance for a critical, negating its purpose except for the visual.

The +50% EXP increase, and class rebalancing (I'm not talking about the lack of carry-over with intermediate and advanced human classes, I'm talking about the skill and spell list changes, where Monster Masher is WAY too OP having the strongest cost-free fire breath attack).

The selection of new skills ignored map-based skills, which would be required for the on-map spawning monsters.  Vanish would have been very useful.  Not having Padfoot is a huge detriment, and I have to wonder if they weren't able to figure out how best to use it, or make it work properly before release, and focused on other things.

The missing data plots of stat growth, which is indicative of long-nights staying up trying to get those stats plugged in properly, and being tired, making mistakes (like a 0 where there should be a 10, a 6 where there should be a 9, and so forth, but mostly it's 0's instead of a 10).  The overly complicated level up modifier doesn't help either.  That was very ambitious, but poorly implemented to punish heavy seeding.

The lack of bag searches, something intrinsic to the original.  Despite tweaking the bag's to pop out and be wide enough for the character's to put their arms in, ala DQ8.

The changes to certain town layouts to simplify those towns, while others were kept virtually identical.  Unlike DQ 6, where every town was altered in some capacity, or DQ's 4 and 5, where they were all expanded to some degree in general size to give it a more realistic feel.  7 had more shrinkage.

Overly simplistic world map terrain.  The fact there's any pop-in at all, suggests they weren't able to tweak the graphics or what is streamed to, and loaded into RAM at what points.  DQ8 loads a LOT more at any one point, with higher grade textures on the world map, than does 7, suggesting 7 is loading a lot of other data...given 8's loading issues in battle, probably 7 has all battle and special menu data pre-loaded, while 8 only loads it when battles load.  Given 7's special equipment menu has no load time, while 8 has some load time, 8 likely loads it when it needs to, then dumps for other data bits when it no longer needs it.

There are a lot of other things.  I hope they continue what they started with, as 7 3DS is a really good baseline.  It just needs a lot of extra work.  They could easily enhance the start of the game by having the graves lead to puzzle rooms, then the final set of graves leading to a special set of puzzle rooms that give some telltale signs of what's to come, much like one section of the original temple.  Having the option to either choose the imp or place the fragments independently would have been nice.   Having the other puzzles see changes, and improvements (there's one improved puzzle in DQ7 3DS, the rest are either the same, removed, or dumbed down) would be nice.   A Draconian mode would also help out, as well as basic initial rebalancing.  I get the idea of moving players through faster, but there are good ways to handle that:

1) assure party chat always points to the next objective...sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it does.  Maybe have DQ11's in-game map and pointer system to the next objective.

2) Zoom works in the past, and past towns are Zoom points in the present, with the exception of the first two towns for the sake of story.

3) More interesting terrain design and more chests would engender more exploration, much as with DQ's 8 and 11 (and to a lesser degree, 9)

4) Padfoot restored, add in Vanish, give Padfoot to Keifer at the start, as it would explain his slipping past the guards everytime they're on the lookout.  For the rest, make it a class option.  Padfoot reduces how quickly enemies notice the player, and reduces spawn rate.  Maybe tack in a new skill that slows down enemies on the map.

5) Tweak the hallways in the dungeons where they're too narrow, and the size or trigger box for monsters, along with their visual acuity from 180 to 150~120 degrees, and give a good 1s grace period when spawned.

6) Bonus Balls actually work on Class leveling, and increase item drop rate.  Both Bonus and Bumper Bonus Balls can be found in player made Tablets as clear rewards for certain monsters.

7) Clear rewards also include upgrade materials, these upgrades can be used at a special shop in the Haven/Township/Simtown, at a certain stage only available through story attrition of a certain individual.  This upgrade is more complex and comprises two elements, either a one-time upgrade per equipment, except certain rare and one-time gear, that's random and upgrades from +1~5 with a certain bonus of a certain type, or the player plays a mini-game where they can pick the attribute/s upgraded and "forge" that upgrade themselves at +1~5 based on skill and a little luck.  One-time rares can have their bonus reset, and it takes more of whatever material is necessary, to apply a bonus whether random or through the mini-game.  Possible to add in multiple attributes if enough material is available, but each attribute can only be upgraded a certain amount, and combined, can go up to 3 maximum attributes (including one attribute added to the equipment), where if 1 attribute, it's +5 at max, if 2 attributes, it's +3 each at max, if 3 attributes, it's +2 for 2 of them, and +3 for one.

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Posted (edited)

I was never a big fan of DW7, and I thought overall the 3DS remake was a better designed game, but it lacked some things that were present in the original. Mainly the Shepherd's spell for Rest, where you could regain HP and MP while "sleepwalking," but if attacked in battle your character would start the battle asleep. DQVI has this spell, and it was in the original Dragon Warrior VII, but not the remake--most likely because you would be OP with a spell like that and no random encounters. I used to use that spell for continuous battle without the need for an Inn or to stop by a town.

Edited by Liamland

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Posted (edited)
On 4/21/2020 at 11:30 PM, ignasia said:

 

Well, there is the challenge of making a Super Kiefer save, and exploit an easter egg with your other characters starting at level 1 from just prior to Alltrades, with some advantages (like all the DLC equipment obtained early, and a plethora of monster hearts)...to essentially create a perfect save where it's much easier to develop your own challenge.  Dharma/Alltrades at level 1 (done this a few times), is rather painful, even with the gear the game provides at that point through the Casino (and easier to exploit Lucky Panel).  Definitely allows for a rougher challenge than the original, especially if the Slimetree Forest map is exploited for class leveling.  Taking on Dune/Al-Balad as early as level 11 is REALLY rough going, especially as Seto's Massacre attack no longer targets himself, so it only hits your party members.

Plus the challenge of using Kiefer solo to obtain all the DLC items, nevermind getting him to level 99, especially with only one cartridge and relying on either DLC maps or player traded maps (abusing Slimetree Forest for trades), presents its own challenge, while allowing more usage of Kiefer than in the original game, more time spent with him for those who wish he stuck around.

Just to note, the main issue for the 3DS is the time gap in development.  They had to:

1) retool the original development kit for the 3DS

2) rebuild the entire PSX game from scratch for the Square-Enix servers, which took a lot longer than previous remakes given how much content was in the original game

 

They clearly had a lot of ambitions for DQ7 3DS to boot, so a lot of those elements went into the retooling for DLC connectivity and street pass functionality unique to DQ7 3DS and separate from the 3DS system's street pass functionality.

Each of the games as they released, once they rebuilt the game for SE's database, before remaking 4, 5, 6, and 7, game development actually started.  With 4~6 they clearly didn't require much retooling given DS architecture and capabilities weren't much different from the PS1, a bit more powerful, like buffers and some basic shaders, but overall not much more more powerful.   So you'd see this time window of each game, each being larger, going from 4~6, having larger and larger windows between first screens and release.  4 was like 5 months, 5 was like 6 months, 6 was like 1 year.  7, was 3 months.

The amount of grunt work and obvious time limitation combined with excessive workload and excessively ambitious additional content is probably the reason Arte Piazza took a 2+ year break from game development afterwards.  Something they had never done (at most a 6 month break).

Some of the telltale signs are spells in the game still, but unfinished, so unused, like Padfoot.  The size of hallways early game vs late game in general (some exceptions like the time room), where certain later game maps with narrow halls have lower spawn rates and larger distances from the party for new spawns, than earlier dungeons (Litorud/El Ciclo dungeon versus Engow/Emberdale's dungeon).

The obviously rushed temple and gravesites having simple buttons.

Certain bugs inherent to all versions.

The Japanese text and format code integrated into the game in a way the localization team couldn't figure out how to decouple it, or even decouple all language format codes, so all international releases load ALL format code and languages at the same time, thus the menu lag, but no lag in animations in battle, on maps, or moving around on maps.

The fast-track to the Monster Munchies early game, and even the overly simplistic changes to The Haven, compared to its original form.  Even the storyline surrounding Phlegmrique is surprisingly basic compared to even DQ4's town map, which they attempted to copy to some degree, and the implication for The Haven, was for a castle town at the end, not what we ended up with.

The fact that only certain DLC equipment shows up as player-made Tablet rewards, not all of it, and it's inconsistent as to which, that some of the new items are only available as tablet rewards, and there are a lot of unused DLC monsters.  That certain DLC monsters cannot be recruited.  The nature of tablet creation having certain limitations that suggest they didn't have time to account for ranges of monster types (most have only 3 of a single type, some 2, but a few have 4 and with the DLC groups, 5 and 6 of the same type, making it impossible to make a properly themed map of a single type, or even with multiple types, despite the DLC compositions often being thematically consistent).  That certain pieces of normal in-game equipment do not show up as Tablet rewards, and quite a few are repeated.

The nature of leveling tablet bosses, and what it does.  The simplistic nature of the tablet chest rewards.

Lack of properly tested balancing shifts.  Some were well thought through, like the lower tier breath attacks.  The changes to certain level-based skills, and using the same changes throughout was a very bad move.  One of Ruff's special attacks has no special function, and just does 100% damage, with no chance for a critical, negating its purpose except for the visual.

The +50% EXP increase, and class rebalancing (I'm not talking about the lack of carry-over with intermediate and advanced human classes, I'm talking about the skill and spell list changes, where Monster Masher is WAY too OP having the strongest cost-free fire breath attack).

The selection of new skills ignored map-based skills, which would be required for the on-map spawning monsters.  Vanish would have been very useful.  Not having Padfoot is a huge detriment, and I have to wonder if they weren't able to figure out how best to use it, or make it work properly before release, and focused on other things.

The missing data plots of stat growth, which is indicative of long-nights staying up trying to get those stats plugged in properly, and being tired, making mistakes (like a 0 where there should be a 10, a 6 where there should be a 9, and so forth, but mostly it's 0's instead of a 10).  The overly complicated level up modifier doesn't help either.  That was very ambitious, but poorly implemented to punish heavy seeding.

The lack of bag searches, something intrinsic to the original.  Despite tweaking the bag's to pop out and be wide enough for the character's to put their arms in, ala DQ8.

The changes to certain town layouts to simplify those towns, while others were kept virtually identical.  Unlike DQ 6, where every town was altered in some capacity, or DQ's 4 and 5, where they were all expanded to some degree in general size to give it a more realistic feel.  7 had more shrinkage.

Overly simplistic world map terrain.  The fact there's any pop-in at all, suggests they weren't able to tweak the graphics or what is streamed to, and loaded into RAM at what points.  DQ8 loads a LOT more at any one point, with higher grade textures on the world map, than does 7, suggesting 7 is loading a lot of other data...given 8's loading issues in battle, probably 7 has all battle and special menu data pre-loaded, while 8 only loads it when battles load.  Given 7's special equipment menu has no load time, while 8 has some load time, 8 likely loads it when it needs to, then dumps for other data bits when it no longer needs it.

There are a lot of other things.  I hope they continue what they started with, as 7 3DS is a really good baseline.  It just needs a lot of extra work.  They could easily enhance the start of the game by having the graves lead to puzzle rooms, then the final set of graves leading to a special set of puzzle rooms that give some telltale signs of what's to come, much like one section of the original temple.  Having the option to either choose the imp or place the fragments independently would have been nice.   Having the other puzzles see changes, and improvements (there's one improved puzzle in DQ7 3DS, the rest are either the same, removed, or dumbed down) would be nice.   A Draconian mode would also help out, as well as basic initial rebalancing.  I get the idea of moving players through faster, but there are good ways to handle that:

1) assure party chat always points to the next objective...sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it does.  Maybe have DQ11's in-game map and pointer system to the next objective.

2) Zoom works in the past, and past towns are Zoom points in the present, with the exception of the first two towns for the sake of story.

3) More interesting terrain design and more chests would engender more exploration, much as with DQ's 8 and 11 (and to a lesser degree, 9)

4) Padfoot restored, add in Vanish, give Padfoot to Keifer at the start, as it would explain his slipping past the guards everytime they're on the lookout.  For the rest, make it a class option.  Padfoot reduces how quickly enemies notice the player, and reduces spawn rate.  Maybe tack in a new skill that slows down enemies on the map.

5) Tweak the hallways in the dungeons where they're too narrow, and the size or trigger box for monsters, along with their visual acuity from 180 to 150~120 degrees, and give a good 1s grace period when spawned.

6) Bonus Balls actually work on Class leveling, and increase item drop rate.  Both Bonus and Bumper Bonus Balls can be found in player made Tablets as clear rewards for certain monsters.

7) Clear rewards also include upgrade materials, these upgrades can be used at a special shop in the Haven/Township/Simtown, at a certain stage only available through story attrition of a certain individual.  This upgrade is more complex and comprises two elements, either a one-time upgrade per equipment, except certain rare and one-time gear, that's random and upgrades from +1~5 with a certain bonus of a certain type, or the player plays a mini-game where they can pick the attribute/s upgraded and "forge" that upgrade themselves at +1~5 based on skill and a little luck.  One-time rares can have their bonus reset, and it takes more of whatever material is necessary, to apply a bonus whether random or through the mini-game.  Possible to add in multiple attributes if enough material is available, but each attribute can only be upgraded a certain amount, and combined, can go up to 3 maximum attributes (including one attribute added to the equipment), where if 1 attribute, it's +5 at max, if 2 attributes, it's +3 each at max, if 3 attributes, it's +2 for 2 of them, and +3 for one.

Great post! Agreed with most of that. Draconian options (or just an actual good game balance to begin with) would go a long way towards making dq7 3ds enjoyable. Restoring the class system features to the complexity that they had in the original game would also be necessary, they dumbed it down a lot in the remake.

 

Also lots of story bits here and there were cut out of the remake and character motivations and storytelling suffered. It is not as impactful or as good of a story as it is on the original version on ps1.

Edited by aweigh
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Honestly my only complaint with the PS1 version is its incredibly obvious that they didn't proofread the translation at all, it felt rushed (admittedly due to just how much they had to translate in a short timeframe with like 20 people).

The PS1 version with the 3DS translation would be my ideal version, overall.  I don't like most of the gameplay changes to the 3DS version, but I still enjoy it since I like having a translation that feels like an actual finished product and not a massive rushjob.

Of course, if I could actually read Japanese, this wouldn't be a problem, so yeah...

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I've reached the point in my life I rarely, if ever, play video games a 2nd time. Thus, all the changes to DQ7 3DS I think were welcome mainly because they WERE changes! I'd played DW7 PS1 a good 2+ times for almost 300 hours, so different was much appreciated.

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23 hours ago, Plattym3 said:

I've reached the point in my life I rarely, if ever, play video games a 2nd time. Thus, all the changes to DQ7 3DS I think were welcome mainly because they WERE changes! I'd played DW7 PS1 a good 2+ times for almost 300 hours, so different was much appreciated.

I may be reaching that point and its so sad. 

 

Especially with games like that. I always hope for remakes, remasters, and ports for that reason exactly. 

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23 hours ago, Plattym3 said:

I've reached the point in my life I rarely, if ever, play video games a 2nd time. Thus, all the changes to DQ7 3DS I think were welcome mainly because they WERE changes! I'd played DW7 PS1 a good 2+ times for almost 300 hours, so different was much appreciated.

I'm that way with films, though it isn't so much an age thing as I just don't like watching films (or reading books) more than once. There are exceptions, but that's just what they are - exceptions. Usually I'd rather watch something new.

Games on the other hand, can offer a unique experience on every playthrough (albeit with diminishing returns), so I tend to go back to my favorites quite a lot.

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I'm that way with films, though it isn't so much an age thing as I just don't like watching films (or reading books) more than once. There are exceptions, but that's just what they are - exceptions. Usually I'd rather watch something new.
Games on the other hand, can offer a unique experience on every playthrough (albeit with diminishing returns), so I tend to go back to my favorites quite a lot.
I'm 100% the same with books, TV shows, and movies. It's why when people quote them, I'm clueless. I don't memorize the first time, and there's never a 2nd. Haha

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