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aerynb

Female Main Character Heroes

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3 hours ago, eal said:

Trust me, watch enough anime, you’ll realize “monster ladies” is a genre.

Yes, because that genre is totally limited to anime. It’s not like lamias, mermaids, and all that have appeared in games and other media before the genre was a thing.

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@Sumez @eal @JaybirdC @YangustheLegendaryBandit

Sumez...I never once implied those stat changes were necessary.  It's my suggestion because it's also something typical even in games.  All the same, it's just a suggestion, not an ultimatum, and aeryn didn't take it as an ultimatum as you seem to assume it is.  I'm not asserting something has to be a certain way, just what I would do if I were in that position.  It's just a suggestion, that's it.

 

eal + Sumez: It's not just about real-life either, but that goes into the concept of immersion.  I had to look back at Dragon Quest 3 and 4, and both the remakes and original games.  There are actual differences between the genders, including the starting stats of the Hero or Heroine, with more physical focus as the baseline for males, and more agility/wisdom/luck focused for females.  In the remakes of DQ3, the personality system is slanted for male only being very physically oriented (even for all-around types like Lewd) and female only being either all around (which are more agility/wisdom/luck oriented), or very specific to agility/wisdom and/or luck.

In the case of DQ4, Alena's own stats have been drastically altered compared to her compatriots...and this bleeds into my response to Jaybird and Yangus:

I get your point, Alena isn't the only physical purist female.  This is true now that we have Martina, but barring the class-specific games where stats go off of classes (3, 9, and 10 would count but it's not released here and I'm unfamiliar with its processes), they're still a rarity in the DQ female world, where females follow more traditional trends of being smarter, more magically focused, and speedier.

Even so, Alena is still an exception, even when comparing Jade.

Alena's base stats in the original releases puts her ahead of most everyone else in every stat except MP, Wisdom, and Luck for the critical levels you'll likely be by the defeat of Necrosaro, or close enough:

1) Agility from 11+ (formerly Maya). Alena hits 255 at 45, Maya at 87 (Brey at 95, Cristo at 85)

2) Strength from level 20+ (formerly Ragnar...yeah, she handily beats him in this too, even more so than vs Maya in Agility, as in Ragnar is only a tank-physical type more due to weapons than stats).  Alena hits 255 at 51, Ragnar at 82 (the hero at 63)

3) HP starting at 48, but is 2nd a(formerly Ragnar...she also cleans his clock here as well, getting to 500 HP nearly 10 levels before Ragnar).  Alena breaks 500 at 52, Ragnar at 61 (the hero at 91, Torneko at 63...though after level 76, Torneko is the HP king and can hit just shy of 900)

 

She's so utterly broken and dominating, especially given her boosted critical hit rate, and the damage output possible with the Falcon Knife Earrings compared to everyone else, she's the only character in the remakes who is nerfed.  The only one.  Her HP growth is hard capped to roughly 20% lower, her Strength growth takes a 10% hit, and the Hero in the DS remake hits 255 Strength before she does (and Ragnar).  Her critical rate is even curbed sharply, both in the PSX with a reduced growth rate, and further reduced in the DS with a level cap to her growth rate.  Even then, she's still the best physical asset, and still the single best character in the game.

Now I don't personally think she needed to be nerfed, but I am pointing something out, that her unbelievable utility, power, and domination of DW4's original NES release, is to such an extreme level, she still counts as a one-off, even in light of Martina/Jade.

 

I say this because if I compare the weapons, skills, abilities, and stats of Jade, she fits better as a replacement for Terry in DQ6, and fits better my definition of changes to a DQ6 Heroine, than to Alena.  Yes, she's a super buff female.  Yes she can output a LOT of physical damage, but she's not the strongest physical attacker either.  She's very situational as either the 2nd or 3rd best depending on what you're talking about.

For elemental damage output, she's second to the Hero.

For metal killing, she's third to Erik and the secret recruit.

For general purpose non-elemental damage, she's third to the Hero and the secret recruit.

She does offer some of the most damaging combination Pep attacks though, and she does have two attacks that are quite dominating, but she's not even close to a comparison with Alena, as, except for defense, Alena is a literal glass cannon with a buttload of HP to compensate, and super high natural defense (due to the luck of DQ's original natural defense being tied to Agility).

Jade is still one of the most versatile all-around general damage dealers that is good in every situation, never great, never truly dominant, but always good.

You still make a solid point though, but it doesn't change that it's not a standard.  The only real exception being DQ9, but only because there isn't anything related to stat growth that has anything to do with gender.  That's entirely gender neutral.  A female Warrior level 50 will have the same Strength stat as her male counterpart.  The only distinction is the DQ3 approach to gender-based gear options, where females do have an advantage, though mostly with the Magical Skirt.

Edited by ignasia

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===

I forgot one little detail about DQ4's DS remake.  Every person but Alena had stat buffs, almost across the board.  Even with said stat buffs (for instance, Nera can naturally hit 255 Strength, and Maya can get over 200 Strength).  Most of which are over 50% boosts, and EVEN THEN Alena is still the most dominant party member, to the point where her being nerfed and everyone else being boosted does little to change how utterly awesome she is.  It does nothing to alter the fact that the game is much easier with Alena in any and all party setups, and the game is only made harder if she's in the wagon at any point.  It's just that with these changes, the distinction is noticeably less, and there isn't as much of a need to absolutely need Alena.

As in before the changes to the DS, Alena was so dominant, only an imbecile, a sexist who can't stand women being in the active party, or someone intentionally trying to make the game challenging would avoid her.

With the DS changes, it's just easier and better with her, but not absolutely necessary to make your game a cake-walk.

Edited by ignasia

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I'm not gonna tell you all to stop all this, but I feel like this has gotten out of hand. I appreciate everyone's input, opinions, and game research, but I didn't realize I would stir up such debate. I guess I just wanted to know if I was the only one out there who wished she could play more DQ games as a female MC. I'll look into hacking DQ 2 on my own, who knows if I'll succeed. Again, thank you to everyone who responded. (Hopefully no one gets too much more upset about this topic.)

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2 minutes ago, aerynb said:

I'm not gonna tell you all to stop all this, but I feel like this has gotten out of hand. I appreciate everyone's input, opinions, and game research, but I didn't realize I would stir up such debate. I guess I just wanted to know if I was the only one out there who wished she could play more DQ games as a female MC. I'll look into hacking DQ 2 on my own, who knows if I'll succeed. Again, thank you to everyone who responded. (Hopefully no one gets too much more upset about this topic.)

I don't perceive myself or any of the furtherance of discussion to come from a point of anger.  There's also the element that once you start a discussion it's going to continue so long as all parties feel they've said their peace.  in this case it's a cross between an argument and a discussion.

I mean if you or anyone feels as though I am the one taking this too far and somehow down a darker path where you feel uncomfortable, which seems to be the case (despite that you mention no particular names, I'm kind of at the center of this), then I will simply stop.  I just don't think it's necessary as I don't think this will blow over into any negative territory nor has gotten that far.  I think the closest it did was when I misinterpreted eal's intentions the other day.

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@ignasiaI only brought up Jade because she’s another female martial artist like Alena. Then made my comparison with what I like do have female characters do in games sometimes because I thought it would be interesting. Wasn’t much beyond that.

I’ll be honest, I’m not really interested in stat comparisons. I just like having a female character who can hit stuff with a weapon and do good damage and doesn’t need to rely on magic.

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1 hour ago, aerynb said:

I'm not gonna tell you all to stop all this, but I feel like this has gotten out of hand. I appreciate everyone's input, opinions, and game research, but I didn't realize I would stir up such debate. I guess I just wanted to know if I was the only one out there who wished she could play more DQ games as a female MC. I'll look into hacking DQ 2 on my own, who knows if I'll succeed. Again, thank you to everyone who responded. (Hopefully no one gets too much more upset about this topic.)

Oh, no, don't feel bad! We don't mean to discourage you, we just occasionally like to bicker. Keeps the wits sharp.

But nobody's upset, and it's an interesting question you've brought up.

I think recreating a lot of old-school DQ games with a female PC would require some finessing because a lot of the story and relationships assume the PC is male, and the few cases where the hero's sex is choosable the hero borders on being generic to the point of nonentity.

Part of this is because, as was pointed out earlier, there are some notable romance plots that intersect with matters of lineage.

IX avoids this by laying the romance plot on somebody else's shoulders and letting you have a different character to play with. And if X had gotten a western release, I do believe that would've done a great deal to nudge the franchise to providing more female PCs.

I've seen a couple of decent ideas here -- I like the idea of creating different male or female characters and then giving them either unique stories or, if they share the same story, different variations on a theme here and there (it dignifies the choices beyond "we wrote the story for one sex and the other is a reskin"). The Heroes games do this by having a male-female pair leading the party simultaneously with the PC being whichever one you chose to start with (though I would've gone further and had the choice have a demonstrable effect on story and theme beyond "Oh, you cant use the other guy for a while, sorry").

12 hours ago, ignasia said:

Things about Lady-stats, and Alena-stats in particular.

Ah, so that's what you meant. I thought you were talking about the physical female character type, too.

You're right about the stats, of course. I had occasion to look at III's character builds a while ago and remember the differences.

Edited by JaybirdC
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So...because I am a responsible party, and probably the most responsible party for derailing this thread, and likely because the discussion going well beyond the scope of what aerynb's initial desire is, and because I get the impression she's a bit uncomfortable with the direction, if we continue this beyond the original concept, someone should make a new topic for it.  Just so this thread can return to its origin and not go so far afield.  So I'll avoid any further discussion beyond the original intended bounds while in this thread.

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1 hour ago, aerynb said:

I'm not gonna tell you all to stop all this, but I feel like this has gotten out of hand. I appreciate everyone's input, opinions, and game research, but I didn't realize I would stir up such debate. I guess I just wanted to know if I was the only one out there who wished she could play more DQ games as a female MC. I'll look into hacking DQ 2 on my own, who knows if I'll succeed. Again, thank you to everyone who responded. (Hopefully no one gets too much more upset about this topic.)

I wouldn’t mind a female option for more games. The earlier games like 1 and 2 seem like the best candidates for a female option, perhaps with slightly altered clothes but still the same overall costume design (gotta keep those goggles from 2).

For 5-8...I could see a female option for 7 working. The heroine and Kiefer could still be good friends (no sexual tension crap, just a guy and gal who are friends), Maribel is jealous she can’t be better friends with the heroine which would explain her rude behavior...you get the idea. Just change a few things around text wise, that princess later in the game who gets the hots for the hero now just wants to be “the best of friends,” with the heroine (again making Maribel jealous).

I’m not as sure for 6, but that would be another choice. I guess I just don’t see a female option for 5 and 8 working.

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Ig and Jay, thanks for telling me not to feel too bad about all the discussion. I'm a very nonconfrontational person, and it was just bothering me that there was the *possibility* of feelings being hurt. I shouldn't put that on myself. Threads get lives of their own out there in internet land. Can't let myself get emotional over it. Gotta be tougher. ;)

I do like the idea of a female MC leader for 2, so while I learn more about rom hacking I'll keep all this in mind. I will try to keep story important so that my female MC isn't simply a resin as you say. And if her stats need to be a little lower than her male counterpart, well, we may just have to level up a little more before tackling Hargon. ;) But here's hoping Horii writes some DQ games with female leads. That way I don't have to do ALL the work. Lol

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14 hours ago, JaybirdC said:

Because it's completely contrary to the theme, your interest in the scandal notwithstanding. DQVIII is about fulfilling obligations to family, and the golden ending, in which Eight has an acknowledged Argonian title in his own right, allows him and Medea to fulfill the thwarted marriage promise between Medea's late grandmother and the late former king of Argonia and join their kingdoms properly.

I don't think it's really contrary to this theme at all.

Edited by Sumez

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2 hours ago, Sumez said:

I don't think it's really contrary to this theme at all.

 

Glorifying the inferior option of the runaway bride and deliberately scandal-mongering by slapping lesbianism onto it is an act promoting the self and what it wants over one's family; by definition it's contrary to the theme.

Edited by JaybirdC
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The ending to DQ8 is all about supporting the love of the individuals over pointless family traditions and political promises. It's like Disney's version of Aladdin.

Edited by Sumez

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21 minutes ago, Sumez said:

The ending to DQ8 is all about supporting the love of the individuals over pointless family traditions and political promises. It's like Disney's version of Aladdin.

Except it's not.

The arranged marriage isn't pointless. It's not even political. It's an attempt to fulfill a marriage promise between Medea's grandmother and the late king of Argonia, who weren't able to marry as they wished; King Trode and King Clavius are trying to be romantic on their parents' behalf.

In the standard ending, King Trode prioritizes his daughter's happiness over the ancient marriage promise, and prevents her from being locked into a doomed relationship with Charmles, but he deliberately dishonors his own entire kingdom to do so. Further, Trode's summary is blatantly wrong -- selfishly neglecting family obligations constantly leads to misery (Charmles constantly shaming his father and kingdom through self-indulgence and cowardice and cheating at the family's traditional rite of passage, Cash and Carry fighting over their inheritance rather than honoring their adoptive father, everything Dominico, Kalderasha lying to Valentina, etc.).

The golden ending makes a point of providing a means to reconcile Medea's happiness and her obligation, which allows her to fulfill both her love and her grandmother's simultaneously. Fulfilling Medea's obligation properly is literally the most romantic thing this game allows you to do.

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1 hour ago, JaybirdC said:

King Trode and King Clavius are trying to be romantic

Finally, a ship I can get behind.

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I'd love this, yeah. Also its about time for a female villain.

Given in most of the games you can't choose gender, why not a non-optional female hero? 

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9 minutes ago, Awesomeinblue said:

I'd love this, yeah. Also its about time for a female villain.

Given in most of the games you can't choose gender, why not a non-optional female hero? 

I heard X’s villain is female. Can any X players confirm for me?

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41 minutes ago, eal said:

I heard X’s villain is female. Can any X players confirm for me?

One of them may be, but the villain of DQX before the expansions was Hades Nergal, who has the pretty boy look style Orgodemir uses to hide his demonic form.

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WOAH! Now where do I even begin?

Hi, @aerynb! I know that your post has created alot of conversation that was directly or indirectly discussion related to your intital question, but i would like to say (and i apologize in advance if this comes out as presumptuous) that this is an incredible thread that you have created. No worries! You should never regret trying to create discussion/what if scenarios about the series that you like/love. I get the idea that nobody here has any ill will towards another. It is impressive how the topic of female DQ protagonists can bring forth so many valid viewpoint concerning how to implement these changes. 

I'm surprised I didn't come uo with this topic! XD 

But any... To the topic at hand: 

DQ 1: I can easily see a female protagonist being in the game without drastically altering the story. Although the female hero wouldn't be able to marry the princess, it won't affect the story of DQ 2 since the original hero left alfegard to form a new kingdom anyway. The female hero could easily have children with any unnamed lad at any point after their kingdom is created. Though marrying a prince of tanegel could work as well if we want it to be really simple. 

DQ 2: Being able to start with the princess of moonbroke would be a great idea (since we would get an interesting perspective from the princess). In terms of being turn into a dog, you can give that role to the prince of hanncock. Hey, it is better than being turned into a coffin😅! The beginning of Moonbroke's gameplay could play out simular to CH 4 of DQ, where the player would need to rely on magic such as status spells to get by. 

DQ 5: Yeah, I can't find a good way to implement a female hero without majorly rewritting the story. I will leave the story as it is for now.

DQ 6: Now this is where it get really interesting! We could either (1) Make Ashlynn the female protagonist since her story parallels with the DQ 6's story in term of the whole " self discovery" theme that the game portrays. It would be interesting to see some darker theme being handled when it comes to Ashlynn's journey. Or (2) Have a female version of the DQ 6's Hero. You would be able to keep alot of the same element of the original version of the game. Although the implied shipping between Ashlynn and the Hero might be lost, the female hero can have such a relation with terry or Carver. Because we all know how the fanbase feel about Carver 😏. Regarding the Two Hero storyline with Tania and Buddy, here is an interesting proposal: Have the other half of the Hero be Male. This would along well with the theme of self discovery since We as human being often need to balance our masculine and feminine aspect of ourselves. This can allow the writing to be more flexible with a female hero while still retaining the main points of the original story.

DQ 7: You can easily change the Hero's gender without sacrificing elements of the story. Only minor things such as Maribelle's crush on the hero might be lost, but that can be easily worked around.

DQ 8: I believe that you could have a female hero and leave Maeda as a female. You can keep alot of the elements of the story since it is centered around hunting a villian. A lesbian relationship would oddly work in the story's favor since it would add to the conflict that Maeda and Trode face regarding Charmles. What would they rather face? A Mutual loving relationship between the princess of trodian and famed herorine of the kingdom/ Heiress to the throne of Aragon at the cost of any potential children? ( Or ) A miserable relationship involving a spoil despicable manchild who is clearly not worthy of the throne and would sent both kingdoms into the grave? 

Apologies for the lengthy read. Hope that I was able to proper anwer your question!

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I've reimagined V from the female perspective. Somewhat similar to something ignasia mentioned, but I would change it slightly. Instead of a male/female version of the same character, give the player the choice to choose from the three brides as an MC (Bianca, Nera and Deborah), then there's a series of male characters to choose from for the husband, including the original hero and Harry.

For DQIV I'd like the chance to play with both Zenithians in the party. A lot of the production-art shows them both together like they're twins. Perhaps there's some bonus content plot point where the other MC joins as a separate character along the way. The chosen one would still be the MC you picked in the beginning, but the remaining twin would be a fellow Zenithian who is supporting the MC's cause.

DQII could do with a vast overhaul. Maybe you choose to play as each characters main story leading up to the point where they meet up. Moonbrooke's beginning could encompass some stuff before the attack as well as her beginning transformed into a dog and making her way to Hamlin.

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