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I wish more of the main series titles had the option for female main characters. 4 was/is one of my favorites for this reason. And 3 and 9 are all about character customization, so it would have been weird not to have the female option. I can understand why it would have been impossible for 5 and difficult for 8, but I think 6 and 7 should have had the option (though I can't really remember 6's story well enough to know if a female hero is impossible). Remakes of 2 could have seen a female warrior princess of Midenhall, right?

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Is it a boys' club mentality that keeps the main character male? I've read interviews where Horii adamantly defends the main character being silent, citing a disconnect with the player if he were to say something the player didn't think he would say. Playing a boy character as a girl kind of creates disconnect too.

So here's what I'd love to see, the next remakes of 2, 6, and 7 are overhauled to allow for a female main character. Pipe dream, I know. If not that, future DQ main title games all get female option for the main character, despite whatever story they're telling. If not that, then I'd like a DQ main title game where the main character is a girl, ala chapter 2 or 4 of DQ4.

And if none of that is possible, could someone maybe do a female option hack of 2, 6, or 7? (2 would be a great test as it's so much smaller than the others.)

Edited by aerynb
Added pic to illustrate my point.
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Finally, a ship I can get behind.

Ig and Jay, thanks for telling me not to feel too bad about all the discussion. I'm a very nonconfrontational person, and it was just bothering me that there was the *possibility* of feelings being hu

Well that would be fantastic! (Re: XII) And, yeah, I guess I kinda figured a rom hack would be tough to do. It was nice thinking about it though.

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You’ll find that sometimes the female MC added in the remake is often the fan favorite. People seem to prefer the feMC to the canon protagonist in Persona 3, Crystal from Pokémon Crystal, from what I’ve seen, seems to be more liked. FemShep from Mass Effect. I personally like DQ IV’s female protagonist for her giant awesome hair.

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5 minutes ago, Fates said:

Bulma tried the DQ4 hair for a few episodes. She couldn't pull it off though, one of her weaker looks IMO.

Better then her mom hair.

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My favorite Bulma look is her classic DB look.

Anyways as far as the DQ Artbook pic... I'm actually surprised the girls aren't featured on the cover. DQ4's girl and DQ9's default girl (the pink hair one). Kind of a let down, but I wonder if that cover image is an actual Toriyama illustration and not the infamous assistants he has.

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5 minutes ago, Fates said:

Anyways as far as the DQ Artbook pic... I'm actually surprised the girls aren't featured on the cover. DQ4's girl and DQ9's default girl (the pink hair one). Kind of a let down, but I wonder if that cover image is an actual Toriyama illustration and not the infamous assistants he has.

I was disappointed they weren't there too. Could have, and should have, been included pretty easily.

39 minutes ago, eal said:

You’ll find that sometimes the female MC added in the remake is often the fan favorite. People seem to prefer the feMC to the canon protagonist in Persona 3, Crystal from Pokémon Crystal, from what I’ve seen, seems to be more liked. FemShep from Mass Effect. I personally like DQ IV’s female protagonist for her giant awesome hair.

I like her hair too. :) I've been playing Zelda:BotW a lot in the past year, and that franchise suffers the same problem I think. A mod came out a little while ago where you could play as Zelda or the female Link, Linkle. Cool ideas.

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Hmm...being a guy I can't really relate, but I've never had any issues relating to female archetypal heroes.  It's just that historically it's not as common for females to play those roles.

That said, you could make it work for each game.  It just means certain role reversals.   It would require some alterations to the storyline to make things fit a bit better, but not impossible.

Dragon Quest 1:

Generic, so you could have a sex option like with 3, 4, and 9.

Dragon Quest 2:

I don't see a need to change the roles.  Instead you pick which person you start with, and this alters the beginning of the storyline relative to the other two.  From there a class archetype is picked.  Each one has slightly better strengths or weaknesses between the archetypes.  Let's keep it simple: Warrior, Armamentalist, Sage (essentially what's already present, minus skill options).  Allow for some skills from 6 onward, and differentiate the skill and spell options depending on who is picked for what class.

So let's say you pick Moonbrooke and Warrior.  Moonbrooke will never hit the Strength total of Middenhall at the same levels, nor the same HP, but will have a lot more Agility, will actually come with spells (like Heal), and will have agility style skills like Falcon Slash and Mercurial Thrust (which neither of the other two get, and stacks with Falcon Sword for a 2.25x bonus, which is slightly more damage than Middenhall versus weaker monsters, but slightly less versus most bosses).  Cannock has group attacks should he take the Warrior class, but Moonbrooke can equip whips, so group is still possible, just not with all weapons.

Instead of starting out being turned into a dog, Moonbrooke is destroyed, but you manage to escape, and the guard that initially escapes helps you get to the other side of the river.  However, Cannock is waylaid in his quest to the river, and is turned into an animal.  So you still need the mirror, but it means backtracking and returning to the original second town (the one Middenhall would end up in).

Dragon Quest 5:

Start with a female, and instead of meeting three female wives-to-be, you meet three suitors to be.  Bianca is now Brian.  The contest for marriage is changed to a beauty contest, and you decide to seek out these items to prove not only are you beautiful enough to be worthy of Ned's hand in marriage (but not Dan...as Dan is just a loner dick who isn't interested in anyone and is a nihilistic bastard who goes off on his own into the world and who knows when he returns to his father Briscotelli), but also to catch his eye because you're a badass chica who didn't just inherit some fancy ring set and a dress...no, you battled for it.  Your choice to head into the volcano spurred on some jealousy in the one woman who has been in love with Ned for her whole life, so she attempts the passage, but fails, and her bodyguard had to bring her back.

Or it could be that Briscotelli needs someone to gather the rings as he wants only the best for his son Ned's wedding, and the team comes back empty handed, so you volunteer which catch's Ned's attention, and triggers the armour shop's daughter to offer to get the ring with her father.

Everything else works out the same.

Dragon Quest 6:

Sure, the Hero could be a woman, but some changes.  Maybe less Strength, definitely more Agility, definitely less HP, definitely more MP, and of course female specific gear options.  The princely gear is changed to a really nice dress (the one required to enter the castle in the lower world the first time).  You could probably have some special attribute added like extra evasion and a slightly higher natural critical hit rate (or hell, give her Alena's crit rate, and allow Martial Artist to just stack/add to it).

Dragon Quest 7:

Would actually be hard given the focus on party chat, and Maribel's abuse.  Actually, unlike any of the others, due to the absolute nature of the relationship between the core characters, this would be as difficult to work as 8.

Would need totally rehauled (separate) party chat for Maribel, Kiefer, etc. that indicates you're a tomboy, and maybe Maribel admires you and wants to follow you, but Kiefer gets all her ire, then the other boys.  Then totally different dialogue for certain core female NPCs, most significantly Princess Michaela, who would just admire your temerity and desire to be free of the trappings of power and responsibility (in her eyes...despite the quest being the single most responsible course of action one could take in that world).

Yeah, with that it could work.  I would argue similar treatment to DQ6's female hero statistically.  It might actually make for the most brutal sets of Heroes...two uber Alena's essentially.

Dragon Quest 8:

This would definitely be difficult, but doable.  Maybe have Medea be a male instead of a female, renamed to either Cawdor or a male direct equivalent like Marcus.  You're a tomboy who happened to prefer the sword, so the King, feeling intrigued by you, and at the pushing of Marcus, grants your wish to join the guards.

Prince Charmles has to become a woman, maybe named Graceles (Clavius pronounces it Grace lee), and being the only child of the King Clavius and so must undergo the right as she is the only one who can claim the throne.  Note that the historical precedent is the first child gets the throne, male or female.  Only as a female, they are allowed to bring one guardsman or trusted servant as a bodyguard for help if she so chooses.

The nature of Charmles speaking patterns aren't gender specific.  Just elitist, so it's interchangeable.

Similar stat alteration, but in this case, I would argue some skill alterations to account for likely less Strength.  Falcon Slash does .8 per hit, Fire Slash 1.3x + Level (level is unaffected by Tension or Oomph), Dragon Slash 1.6, and so on and so forth.  No critical bonus though.  More Wisdom however, a lot more Wisdom, so magic is far more potent...on par with Angelo.

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I guess I don't have a big problem relating to the male MCs, but sometimes there is a bit of disconnect. I think DQ1 should probably stay as is. As much as I'm arguing for female hacks, DQ1 is about as classic a story as they come. I also subscribe to the notion if ain't broke don't fix it.

While I wouldn't mind your idea for changing DQ2, it seems way too hard for any potential hackers. Changing the Prince of Midenhall into a Princess with corresponding pronouns at least seems doable, probably, maybe...

I've often wondered if DQ5's story could be reworked enough to make a female MC possible. Your idea seems very plausible. And at least it just seems like a story, text and sprite hack as opposed to reworking the beginning of 2's game. Then again, why is your husband kidnapped after you give birth instead of you... like your mother was kidnapped from Pankraz when you were born. Something else to think about.

I know you're a big DQ6 fan, ignasia, so if you say there aren't any story reasons for barring a female MC, I believe you. Bring on a female DQ6 hero!

I guess I wasn't thinking about all the dozens of ways 7 gets messed up if MC is a girl. I'd have to think more about it.

I wouldn't ask any hacker to touch 8. Nearly every 3D graphic would have to change, and just... no, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. Besides, the classicness of that story is on par with 1's story. Hard to change a classic story about rescuing the princess and saving the world from evil.

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@ignasiaI know this isn’t the line of thinking you were going with when you were talking about relating, but I think this is the topic for me to say my feelings on this particular thing. People can debate the value of having someone that looks likes you as being easier to relate to until the cows come home and I can see both sides of this argument.

However, when it comes to the silent protagonist, I feel there really is no argument, gender and race being similar to yours is important in relating to a character. There’s a reason you can customize the full appearance of your character in a lot of games with silent protagonists. The point is that they’re a self insert for you.

I always name the trainers in Pokémon after me and I always choose the male protagonist. Only times I don’t is when I’m just there’s for the gameplay or something. Xenoblade Chronicles X, Soul Sacrifice, the first 30 minutes I get through in every SoulsBorne game, I pick female protagonists because I want a character that’s cool to look at, not to attatch myself to. I want games to feel like my adventure, and relating to them is important if the only notable trait about them aside from being the hero is that they look like you. #$*!, man, I even came up with headcanon for why the Persona 4 protag had an American first and last name (his parents are working overseas so I invented in my head that the dad is an American who met his wife while working in Japan and settled there. Your uncle is even referred to as your mother’s brother, so it still works). If this is important to me, then it’s surely important to other people too.

If they’re gonna create a silent protagonist for you and go to the effort of assigning their appearance and name to you by default, it makes the game actively worse because at that point they should be a fleshed out character, not a self insert.

 

Also, you mentioned that the roles of hero aren’t historically common. I’m assuming you meant that it’s not historically common in fiction for women to get those roles, which is true and I agree. Again, for this next part, I know this probably isn’t what you’re thinking, but I do hear it a lot so I thought I’d just throw it out as a part of the discussion in general. An excuse I see a lot when it comes to female representation in fantasy and why they can’t get certain roles in the story is that women weren’t afforded those sorts of options in the Middle Ages so it makes sense from a historical context that they not get these roles in fiction, which just sounds silly to me. The point of fantasy is to create your own world, your own...fantasy, dare I say. Why constrain your story with dragons and dwarves and manticores and #$*! with historically accurate gender dynamics??

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9 minutes ago, eal said:

@ignasiaI know this isn’t the line of thinking you were going with when you were talking about relating, but I think this is the topic for me to say my feelings on this particular thing. People can debate the value of having someone that looks likes you as being easier to relate to until the cows come home and I can see both sides of this argument.

However, when it comes to the silent protagonist, I feel there really is no argument, gender and race being similar to yours is important in relating to a character. There’s a reason you can customize the full appearance of your character in a lot of games with silent protagonists. The point is that they’re a self insert for you.

 ... If this is important to me, then it’s surely important to other people too.

If they’re gonna create a silent protagonist for you and go to the effort of assigning their appearance and name to you by default, it makes the game actively worse because at that point they should be a fleshed out character, not a self insert.

...  Why constrain your story with dragons and dwarves and manticores and #$*! with historically accurate gender dynamics??

I totally agree! Very well said.

Edited by aerynb
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Eal, the whole point of my post was to ignore explaining the logic you wrote out, and find ways around making things work thematically as an opposite gender role.  So it doesn't take away from the connection elements within the story, which would be present for any particular gender role as written.

Simply asserting a gender in place of another doesn't work that well for me, because it ignores elements intrinsic to both sexes.  Or hell if you want to go with multiple gender types, intrinsic elements specific to those.  The silent protagonist through NPC dialogue and party chat, is often entreated as that particular gender (except in certain cases where the writing is clearly indistinguishable as with DQ9, or is overly simplistic as with DQ's 1~5).

Also..eal, i'm referring to literal history, not fantasy archetypes in literature.  As in I'm responding to the boys club comment in aerynb's first post as to why so many happen to be male versus female.

---

aerynb...I can understand your sentiments about 1.  I can see why you would want to avoid the entrappings of 8 given character models.  7 is still workable, especially the PSX version, given we know where each text file is, it's just the workload would indeed be enormous.  Modeling simple though...remove the hood and have flowing long hair and it works.

As for DQ5...well, that's an easy one to work around.  The husband was stressing out over the children being born, as it was his first time and having lived a relatively sheltered life (the wild child only escaping into the town to drink the night away or go only somewhat far afield, but not far enough to be in any immediate danger).  Then ends up on the balcony, while you, the workhorse mum get up, and walk downstairs to have a chat with Sancho.  Your Husband is taken from you.

OR, you could work it that you are taken, and are bound, and when your husband comes to save you, he's defeated, while you untie yourself, only to be defeated.  The merchant brothers who take the statues take his because of the blood ties to the old Hero, which they're unaware of, only that they have a specific special buyer for his statue.

Edited by ignasia
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I don’t care if my protagonist, silent or otherwise, is female. If there’s a female option, I usually pick that on the second playthrough or something, kind of like how male Corrin was my guy for Fire Emblem Birthright while female Corrin was my gal for Fire Emblem Conquest.

I just don’t want to see a bunch of over sexualization #$*! happen to the character (or characters) for no reason.

Edited by YangustheLegendaryBandit
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19 minutes ago, ignasia said:

Eal, the whole point of my post was to ignore explaining the logic you wrote out, and find ways around making things work thematically as an opposite gender role.  So it doesn't take away from the connection elements within the story, which would be present for any particular gender role as written.

Simply asserting a gender in place of another doesn't work that well for me, because it ignores elements intrinsic to both sexes.  Or hell if you want to go with multiple gender types, intrinsic elements specific to those.  The silent protagonist through NPC dialogue and party chat, is often entreated as that particular gender (except in certain cases where the writing is clearly indistinguishable as with DQ9, or is overly simplistic as with DQ's 1~5).

Also..eal, i'm referring to literal history, not fantasy archetypes in literature.  As in I'm responding to the boys club comment in aerynb's first post as to why so many happen to be male versus female.

---

aerynb...I can understand your sentiments about 1.  I can see why you would want to avoid the entrappings of 8 given character models.  7 is still workable, especially the PSX version, given we know where each text file is, it's just the workload would indeed be enormous.  Modeling simple though...remove the hood and have flowing long hair and it works.

As for DQ5...well, that's an easy one to work around.  The husband was stressing out over the children being born, as it was his first time and having lived a relatively sheltered life (the wild child only escaping into the town to drink the night away or go only somewhat far afield, but not far enough to be in any immediate danger).  Then ends up on the balcony, while you, the workhorse mum get up, and walk downstairs to have a chat with Sancho.  Your Husband is taken from you.

OR, you could work it that you are taken, and are bound, and when your husband comes to save you, he's defeated, while you untie yourself, only to be defeated.  The merchant brothers who take the statues take his because of the blood ties to the old Hero, which they're unaware of, only that they have a specific special buyer for his statue.

I’m too tired to talk about the more gender political aspects of the discussion  at this point in the night (also for some reason I’ve been having a hard time understanding your posts today and I don’t want to misinterpret them anymore) so I’ll just focus on the more light thing you mentioned about V.

I actually will say I think it makes sense to stick with just a male in that particular game. Unlike with the other games where your character’s gender is incidental to the story, the fact that you are a male is, while not important or critical, Bianca, Deborah, and Nera are characters in their own right, and replacing them with male gender swapped versions feels like a disservice to those characters by making them become essentially interchangeable. You can’t integrate gay marriage between them very well either since the son being a part of your lineage is important. If they could do something along the lines of Persona 3 Portable where they made the established male characters romance options with the female protagonist, then that would work.

Otherwise, I think it makes sense to have the other games have a female option.

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I didn't want to make this a political thing either. I simply want to play DQ games as a "coming of age" girl instead of a boy. It worked so well for 4, I just don't see why it couldn't work for at least 2 and 6 also. At least with 5 I can choose the MC's bride to kinda be based on me... eh, or not. That's why I also thought it would be nice to have a MC and story specifically be female like Alena or Meena and Maya.

Maybe I'll set a goal for myself to learn some hacking and see what I can do to make a Princess of Midenhall.

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Oh, I agree about V, but I would apply the logic to all of them.  One can easily pick individual reasons for not wanting said changes and it is more difficult to adjust depending on the game, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.  However it can be made to work in that light, as I'm not simply "exchanging" genders.  I'm actually accounting for elements that would be required under the circumstances in order to allow for the change, and the nature of those changes seems to be lost in translation.

I think I'm being completely misunderstood.  The whole point of my posts is to directly address the simple question can it be done.  Not should it be done, can it.  That's it.  I am inherently accounting for gender dynamics within the context of my changes as those would be necessary adjustments for said changes to make sense in context without simply slapping on a label, which is what I attempted to avoid.

I apologize aeryn.  Yeah, that's probably a good idea as a test study for whether it can be done.  2 should be the easiest to make it work, as I can agree you can slap a female version and change a few pronouns from the King of Middenhall and one of the maidens smitten with the prince to fit.

Edited by ignasia
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5 minutes ago, ignasia said:

Oh, I agree about V, but I would apply the logic to all of them.  One can easily pick individual reasons for not wanting said changes and it is more difficult to adjust depending on the game, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.  However it can be made to work in that light, as I'm not simply "exchanging" genders.  I'm actually accounting for elements that would be required under the circumstances in order to allow for the change, and the nature of those changes seems to be lost in translation.

I think I'm being completely misunderstood.  The whole point of my posts is to directly address the simple question can it be done.  Not should it be done, can it.  That's it.  I am inherently accounting for gender dynamics within the context of my changes.  I'm really unsure why you feel a need to "school me" on elements that I haven't discounted.  It's a bit patronizing without having written anything indicating my lack of coherence for said elements and understanding.  It's a little insulting.

I’m not trying to “school you.” I wanted to bring up points for a wider discussion that you had touched on but didn’t elaborate so I made sure to say:

1 hour ago, eal said:

I know this isn’t the line of thinking you were going with when you were talking about relating, but I think this is the topic for me to say my feelings on this particular thing.

It wasn’t directed at a particular person, I just wanted to have a discussion on it since this topic is tailor made for it. You just happened to be the person that broached a topic that interested me first, so I rolled with it.

Edited by eal
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@eal  I gotcha.  I'm sorry for taking you out of context.

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I believe Horii mentioned fans would like XII to be more like IV so you may get your wish. As for retroactively adding gender options to the older games? I don't see that happening. It'll take a bit more than just swapping he to she and changing the sprite.

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2 minutes ago, Madesagora said:

I believe Horii mentioned fans would like XII to be more like IV so you may get your wish. As for retroactively adding gender options to the older games? I don't see that happening. It'll take a bit more than just swapping he to she and changing the sprite.

Well that would be fantastic! (Re: XII)

And, yeah, I guess I kinda figured a rom hack would be tough to do. It was nice thinking about it though. :)

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17 minutes ago, ignasia said:

I apologize aeryn.  Yeah, that's probably a good idea as a test study for whether it can be done.  2 should be the easiest to make it work, as I can agree you can slap a female version and change a few pronouns from the King of Middenhall and one of the maidens smitten with the prince to fit.

Just saw this edit.

No need to apologize, ignasia. All good. I may steal some of your ideas for 5 if I ever get back into fanficcing. :lrsmile: Gotta finish about a billion game scripts though. 

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5 minutes ago, aerynb said:

Well that would be fantastic! (Re: XII)

And, yeah, I guess I kinda figured a rom hack would be tough to do. It was nice thinking about it though. :)

It would take a lot of work, but you could approach a rom hacking group with a proposition, or start a thread on romhacking.net to see if anyone would be interested.  Though the NES would be the easiest.

11 minutes ago, Madesagora said:

I believe Horii mentioned fans would like XII to be more like IV so you may get your wish. As for retroactively adding gender options to the older games? I don't see that happening. It'll take a bit more than just swapping he to she and changing the sprite.

Eh, with DQ2, not really.  The context of each conversation is fairly neutral with but a handful of exceptions.  Pronouns are uncommon related to the party except in a few cases, and the nature of the game doesn't explicitly require particular genders for any one scenario.  The only point that I could find conflict with would be stats, where maybe Cannock would have to see some buffing to account for the change, as physical traits do tend to require accounting for so as to make sense and not lose emersion, unless aeryn can get behind the context of Middenhall being an Amazoness in disguise.

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7 minutes ago, ignasia said:

It would take a lot of work, but you could approach a rom hacking group with a proposition, or start a thread on romhacking.net to see if anyone would be interested.  Though the NES would be the easiest.

Eh, with DQ2, not really.  The context of each conversation is fairly neutral with but a handful of exceptions.  Pronouns are uncommon related to the party except in a few cases, and the nature of the game doesn't explicitly require particular genders for any one scenario.  The only point that I could find conflict with would be stats, where maybe Cannock would have to see some buffing to account for the change, as physical traits do tend to require accounting for so as to make sense and not lose emersion, unless aeryn can get behind the context of Middenhall being an Amazoness in disguise.

Well, actually, that's kinda what I'm thinking of. Princess of Md. is a warrior princess just like Prince of Md. is a warrior prince -- no magic to speak of like other MC heroes. And I don't think I want her to be a martial artist/Alena clone. What I would do is compare/contrast the stats for the male and female warriors from 3.

In terms of not losing emersion, I seem to recall the MC's son in 5 trying on the Zenithian Helm and it sort of shrinks to fit his head. You could make the claim that the same sort of thing happens with all of Erdrick's gear making it so Princess of Md. can still equip it and be a bad-ass, Wonder Woman warrior. Sure she probably shouldn't be as strong at level 50 as Prince of Md, but that doesn't mean Cannock has to be beefed up to compensate. There are women out there in the world who are stronger than younger/weaker men (I've always thought Cannock was younger than Middenhall by a year or two anyway). Then again, I would like it if Cannock could equip a few more things. It's been so long since I played, I really need to look into it. I'm getting more and more excited about figuring out how to make this hack possible. :overjoyed2:

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You’re not wrong lol. Technically the only DQ game where a gender swap at the beginning would simply not work is DQV because the narrative calls for a male protag. I don’t think it’s done intentionally though.

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I believe Horii mentioned fans would like XII to be more like IV so you may get your wish. As for retroactively adding gender options to the older games? I don't see that happening. It'll take a bit more than just swapping he to she and changing the sprite.
As long as XII doesn't play itself, I'm fine with a female (which lately I've been playing many games as because for 30 years I never did so fun to switch it up), a monkey, or a bag of bricks as the main hero.
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