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TriforceBun

Thoughts on Scorch, Thin Air, etc? (overpowered moves)

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Welp. Despite an easy first 10 hours or so, DQVII's difficulty ramped up after that and I was enjoying the combat quite a lot in the midgame. Or considering the length of the title, maybe that's still the earlygame...? Eh, I digress.

 

Anyway, my Paladin Auster recently learned Thin Air, while Ruff the Monster Masher got access to Flame Breath and Scorch. All of these moves have a few things in common:

 

-They're all 0 MP

-They hit all enemies, groups or not

-They seem to pierce defenses

-They deal an INCREDIBLE amount of damage

-They all break the combat of the game.

 

For real, what's the deal? Why are most all the other moves balanced around damage output/number of targets/MP required except for a handful? These moves absolutely outclass everything else in the game up to this point to a laughable degree. Outside of some boss fights, there's no logical reason NOT to use these moves repeatedly, one after another (assuming the enemy groups even survive the first hit).

 

DQVI had some similar moves, but they didn't seem accessible as early, nor did they seem to do such a disproportionate amount of damage.

 

So to work around this, I've gone ahead and imposed a "don't use overpowered moves" arbitrary rule on my team. But I kinda hate doing that sort of thing, because it feels so forced. Why didn't they just fix these moves to where they either don't hit as hard, or use more MP or something? It's practically like giving characters a "WIN BATTLE" button, for cryin' out loud. And one of my favorite things about the series is its notable difficulty.

 

Your thoughts?

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Try those moves in a boss fight and see what happens!  The moveset is nice and has always been a concern (see Twin Dragon Lash in VIII).  I mean what you have essentially is a great field move that makes dealing with groups of enemies (non metal) a lot easier but is useless when you might need a low cost move to hit a boss.  I think its a little OP, but other than spamming those in field battles I think they are useless moves

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They are OP, but they make grinding up vocations a breeze, plus if you start getting tired of dealing with trash mobs, well, here's your answer!

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I'm fine with it.

 

Sorry I don't have anything else to add, but honestly it doesn't bother me.

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It lets me take revenge for when it was used against me by the Jumping Jackals in VI!

 

In all seriousness, they're nothing in comparison to PSX SwordDanc imo. That thing ripped bosses to shreds for a measly 0MP/use (it costs 2MP now and is exclusive to Hero and Pirate, though).

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Eh, you grind, you become op. That's how it's always worked.

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B..but I don't want to become OP! Oh well, guess I'll just keep it restricted to when I want a battle to be over with quickly. The boss fights are still challenging at least.

 

It's curious to me because it feels like the rest of the game was balanced pretty carefully. Oh well.

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About the only solution to your OP problem is to use nothing but base classes for a good while. Those will keep you level with everything.

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Hmm. Monster Vocations only sounds like a fun challenge.

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About the only solution to your OP problem is to use nothing but base classes for a good while. Those will keep you level with everything.

This. You can just do what I did: do enough grinding to unlock the intermediate classes you want to use first, but don't go into them until later, and level any other base classes normally.

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Welp. Despite an easy first 10 hours or so, DQVII's difficulty ramped up after that and I was enjoying the combat quite a lot in the midgame. Or considering the length of the title, maybe that's still the earlygame...? Eh, I digress.

 

Anyway, my Paladin Auster recently learned Thin Air, while Ruff the Monster Masher got access to Flame Breath and Scorch. All of these moves have a few things in common:

 

-They're all 0 MP

-They hit all enemies, groups or not

-They seem to pierce defenses

-They deal an INCREDIBLE amount of damage

-They all break the combat of the game.

 

For real, what's the deal? Why are most all the other moves balanced around damage output/number of targets/MP required except for a handful? These moves absolutely outclass everything else in the game up to this point to a laughable degree. Outside of some boss fights, there's no logical reason NOT to use these moves repeatedly, one after another (assuming the enemy groups even survive the first hit).

 

DQVI had some similar moves, but they didn't seem accessible as early, nor did they seem to do such a disproportionate amount of damage.

 

So to work around this, I've gone ahead and imposed a "don't use overpowered moves" arbitrary rule on my team. But I kinda hate doing that sort of thing, because it feels so forced. Why didn't they just fix these moves to where they either don't hit as hard, or use more MP or something? It's practically like giving characters a "WIN BATTLE" button, for cryin' out loud. And one of my favorite things about the series is its notable difficulty.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Couple of things.  While you can, and while the game makes it easy to farm vocation points, most of these will be gotten as enemies start hitting the 100~200 HP ranges, unless you avoid extra enemies to get through the game, and then it'll come in late.

 

In the original, which is what the balance was based on, even in a somewhat grind-heavy game, your levels, job masteries, enemy HP, and general encounter rate lent to them being available at opportune times, when they're necessary.  Here, not so much.  In a way, the rebalancing factor seems to be the DLC tablet releases, which offer some serious challenges, even with normal monsters.  The Dragon one can be quite brutal without at least 300 HP minimum, and enough firepower to hopefully put one away in the first round, or at least the second, and before they act again.

 

There is no "pierce defense" in DQ's.  I used to think this way as well, and helped promulgate the idea that Falcon Knife Earrings (Needle Earrings, I forget the DQ4 NES name now), did just this, given its damage, when really it's just the nature of the damage equation and the items doing normal damage, with no reduction modifier, like most versions of the Falcon Blade.

 

In this case it's resistances.  One thing to note is that most enemies with high resistances don't pop up, in DQ7's normal game, until late.  Virtually everything, except for bosses of course, and Metal-slimes, have literally NO resistances of any kind to damage, or very few.  A few exceptions, like fake pots, well demons, and fake treasure chests.

 

So essentially they just never bothered to give any resistances, or change any of them.  A few things are changed however, like enemy skills doing more damage, but they usually die in the first round before they can even utilize them.  I don't think this was balance tested with that in mind.  The HP reduction on most enemies certainly goes a bit further to making these skills even more broken at a time when in the normal game, you'd have to spend 10~20 hours grinding out classes just to access.

 

Just wait a bit though, as the game tends to even out, and by the end-game and post-game, it matters not at all.  Thin Air is nowhere near as useful in the end, especially in the post-game.  Though yeah, I would have liked to have seen resistances tacked a lot of mid-game enemies to offset the changes, maybe even an HP boost to make it worthwhile, or increase some level of challenge by assuring they could attack the next round.

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There is no "pierce defense" in DQ's.  I used to think this way as well, and helped promulgate the idea that Falcon Knife Earrings (Needle Earrings, I forget the DQ4 NES name now), did just this, given its damage, when really it's just the nature of the damage equation and the items doing normal damage, with no reduction modifier, like most versions of the Falcon Blade.

Didn't they change the mechanics behind UltraHit to be less damage but negate Defense?

 

I remember something saying that, anyway. I forget where.

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There is no "pierce defense" in DQ's.  I used to think this way as well, and helped promulgate the idea that Falcon Knife Earrings (Needle Earrings, I forget the DQ4 NES name now), did just this, given its damage, when really it's just the nature of the damage equation and the items doing normal damage, with no reduction modifier, like most versions of the Falcon Blade.

Didn't they change the mechanics behind UltraHit to be less damage but negate Defense?

 

I remember something saying that, anyway. I forget where.

 

 

Yes, but it's not really a pierce defense so much as it's just "damage = damage," so a fixed damage skill with no attribute, and so no resistance is available.  So it's always just "Damage", with dodge being the only way to avoid.

 

I generally consider defense piercing to have something in the code that actually bypasses a certain amount of defense.  I guess technically it counts, but most games use it to mean it's a % of defense that's ignored, not so much all defense, and even if so, it's a factor in the code itself, like it explicitly states it does.

 

I'm picky about those stupid details I guess, but yeah...in this case, you could say it does given what it once was.

Edited by ignasia7

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There is no "pierce defense" in DQ's.  I used to think this way as well, and helped promulgate the idea that Falcon Knife Earrings (Needle Earrings, I forget the DQ4 NES name now), did just this, given its damage, when really it's just the nature of the damage equation and the items doing normal damage, with no reduction modifier, like most versions of the Falcon Blade.

Didn't they change the mechanics behind UltraHit to be less damage but negate Defense?

 

I remember something saying that, anyway. I forget where.

 

 

Yes, but it's not really a pierce defense so much as it's just "damage = damage," so a fixed damage skill with no attribute, and so no resistance is available.  So it's always just "Damage", with dodge being the only way to avoid.

 

I generally consider defense piercing to have something in the code that actually bypasses a certain amount of defense.  I guess technically it counts, but most games use it to mean it's a % of defense that's ignored, not so much all defense, and even if so, it's a factor in the code itself, like it explicitly states it does.

 

I'm picky about those stupid details I guess, but yeah...in this case, you could say it does given what it once was.

 

Ah, alright then, I never really look into Defense piercing with that much technicality.

 

(I'm assuming Dragon Soul works similarly now that I remember it exists, I never actually got it because I never felt like grinding for it and could beat the Ultimate Dragon anyway).

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Got both Scorch and Thin Air on my 3 characters around the same time. Breezing through now for a while. It's killing my levels as I'm now over leveled for class grinding. Haha.

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I remember getting Thin Air early on while in Paladin and I was in the desert region(I did get carried away with job grinding in Slimetree Forest).

 

Considering that I dealt with being drained of my abilities for awhile in Alltrades and had to deal with all the stuff that goes along with it, I didn't mind.

 

I definitely got some laughs out of annihilating my enemies, regardless of it being easy. :laugh::P

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