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Tiael

Silly IGN, wrong picture.

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Geez, if they think reading a few lines for saving is bad, I should point them in the direction of a few books. Specifically the final chapter of James Joyce's Ulysses.

 

http://www.online-literature.com/james_joyce/ulysses/18/

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It's just an example of how lazy and impatient people are these days.

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It's like

 

It's not even because it's Dragon Quest (where an obvious bias exists), just the principle of it

 

It's just... seriously? Reading a few lines of text? THAT'S killing it for you?

No, no! It's not killing it for just them- it's quite possibly the reason DQ never took off in the West!

 

A couple lines of dialog to save?! Absolutely insane! Who'd buy a game like that?!

Edited by gooieooie

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Good things none of those people were Emglish majors (or at least that's what I'm assuming). If they had to read half the books I had to for my classes they'd be praising those lines.

 

But what do I know, as apparently that's the reason DQ never took off here.

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I'd love to elaborate on exactly why our beloved DQ never caught on, to illustrate that the problems are NOT AT ALL to do with how much dialogue it takes to save.

 

Not that any of that matters, Jason likely isnt here to read it, but I feel like soapboxing on the matter, so.. here I go.

 

1.  The game was first released in the states with little to no publication until after the fact, when Nintnedo was still riding high on Zelda and Mario fever, but didn't quite know what else to do with itself. It lead to having so many unsold carts, they had to literally give them away with Nintendo Power.  After I'd rented the game, that was how I got mine.

 

2.  By the time the series had any traction, the fourth installment launched so late in it's home system's lifespan, nobody bot hardcore DW fans noticed. this lead to...

 

3.  the preceding woes left Enix in sich dire financial straits, they couldn't afford to finish english productions of DW5 or 6 in the SNES days, instead publishing even lower tier titles like Lennus (Paladin's Quest), Elnard (The 7th Saga), and Brain Lord.  they DID have nintendo backup on publishing hits like Actraiser and Illusion of Gaia, but again, they had to struggle so much they coudn't produce English translations of DQ 5 or 6, let alone the famous Illusionof Gaia companion piece, Terranigma, in the US.

 

4.  by the time of the Playstation relase of DW7, once again, brand loyalitsts alone picked up the game, 'cause, once again, the production cycle took so long, the next big system (PlayStation2) was in, and the game's home system was out.  History repeated itself.

 

So, bad marketing, bad timing, and the lengthy production cycles and limited staff of the 80's and 90's was the downfall of DW.. NOT the length of the saving process, that's for damn sure. It's a stream of bad luck and poor decisions. 

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You should post that on the article's comment section. Someone needs to see it.

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I would, but I don't want to make an account there, on general principle, and there's no other option for posting there.  I might reconsider in the morning, but not right now.

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Also, they did fix it an hour later, now it's a DQVII image.

 

Oh, and Kotaku, not a review but my goodness.

 

http://kotaku.com/maybe-this-is-why-dragon-quest-never-took-off-in-the-we-1786573268

 

My responses to his "article".

 

It's too obsessed with tradition.

 

Okay.

 

You lose stuff when you die.

 

You lose half of your gold after a party wipe out. You don't lose anything else(except for the time needed to get back to where you were since your last save).

 

Gives up after 10 to 15 hours of playing. Claims it's because of the save feature.

 

Somehow I doubt that's the actual reason. I think it's because he doesn't want put in the effort to git gud.  :P

 

Edit: fixed the last sentence.

Edited by Stepchan
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His complaints speak to the modern mindset that games need to hold your hands to the finish line. Any penalty against you is too steep, any puzzle that requires you to focus and think is too hard, any battle with a high degree of challenge is unfair.

 

Nowadays, it can't be just about the gameplay. No, it's got to be about experiencing a story. Only stories that games can tell, a game developer will tell you, as they describe their game as "cinematic," a term you would use to describe something similar to a movie, which is not what a video game is. And if that gameplay hinders your ability to witness the story exactly as they intended, then it's bad.

 

Remember guys, a "'game over' is a state of failure more for the game designer than from the player. It's like creating an artificial loop saying, 'You didn't play the game the way I wanted you to play, so now you're punished and you're going to come back and play it again until you do what I want you to do.'" - David Cage

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There's a lot more to add to that list Zahan, but generally, that's a good start, and covers the issues with Enix of America, and EoJ's lack of faith in the product, alongside being too reliant on just NP articles.

 

Though recently the main thing is no longer about the past, it's about everything since DQ8, which reset the connection to the West, and had very good sales.

 

So to add on, the sins of Square-Enix, that have led to ups and downs, and the current lack of faith for the series in the West, when it should be a stable 500k+ for each new release, gradually pushing 750k, and eventually 1m, and 300k+ for all remakes, and maybe 150~250k+ for all spinoffs.

 

1) Lack of faith in product.  They put a lot into DQ8's release, and had tremendous success, but given their failures since, they lost faith, assuming it won't sell, rather than take full responsibility for dropping the ball and not cashing in on 8, and pushing forward to gradually greater sales.

 

2) The reason for lack of faith is laziness in marketing, but some of this has to do with timing, costs, and failures in other products.

 

3) Yoichi Wada's organization skills rendered a very compartmentalized company that never spoke to one another, making information and planning difficult.  So money, ideas, and plans would likely be scrapped do to too many individuals requiring notification, but every office on a need to know basis, and rendering assuring the right info and fund allocation hit the right people and groups.  Dwaine can really get into this based on his experiences with organizing for interviews with SE.  What's even worse are resources allocated but that go nowhere because no plans or direction for the funds are granted, but the money is already on the books as being spent and organized to be given to one group or another, effectively wasting money.  There's actual direct evidence of this from multiple reported insider sources talking about the poor communication and resource management in Japan...and from Dwaine, we know the US branch was as bad or worse.

 

4) Laziness and incompetence as a result of number 3, because lack of streamlining in internal communication makes it impossible to get anything done unless it's priority numero uno, so lesser titles like DQ go by the wayside, and even once enthusiastic supporters within the company would have lost their drive to help push the games.

 

5) Bad corporate decisions that cost money removing further resource allocation from smaller projects to larger projects.  Like FF13's increased pre-release marketing budget while DQ V saw it's release.  This and the production of the original FF14 were concurrent with DQ9's release, leading to Nintendo offering to ease SE's burden, especially difficult to handle given how the company was organized.  Then there's the whole FF14 debacle, which hit SE at the same time that DQ6 was being worked on by Plus Alpha, and is the only logical explanation for the cancellation.  Leading to Nintendo taking the helm a second time, and SE just giving up on the series because of all the various circumstances.

 

6) Lack of social media support.  Nor any official attempt to create an official DQ dev team.  They simply assumed right off the bat that SE's brand name, the original FF12 demo pack-in, and the initial media campaign would work in their favour.

 

7) Most importantly, INSANE and ridiculously high sales projections WELL beyond the scope of production and localization costs.  This is likely due to all the lost money thanks to the poorly run, lethargic, and money flushing system Wada happened to create because he never grasped how to operate an actual company, only how to budget and streamline information flow in game production (strange he figured that out, but couldn't adjust that same philosophy to company infrastructure).

 

 

So it's a series of unfortunate events, and SE is now trying to take things one step at a time.  I'm happy with that.  It's the only way to eventually build confidence in the series in the West.  They should be able to look at the sales of each DQ and do a quick analysis to determine why DQ SHOULD be a success story at this point, and how they f'ed up, giving them a motivational push to try harder, but I'll take this slow and steady pace, since it means the eventual feelings of success in the west will be purely new, based on their current tactics, and completely organic, lending to reasonable and smart projections for sales numbers.

 

I thought I'd add in my two cents.  I've said this like 80x before, but maybe someday it will sink into other compatriots in this small but pretty tight fanbase.

 

You'll have to excuse me on my poor communication skills in this thread.  I can't think of half the words or form proper sentences tonight.  I'm about ready to pass out.

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Square Enix and their handling of their various Eidos franchises only goes to show how they are still the same company they ever were, with or without Yoichi Wada. They still flush money down the toilet, they still lack communication skills, and they still fail to properly allocate their resources.

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His complaints speak to the modern mindset that games need to hold your hands to the finish line. Any penalty against you is too steep, any puzzle that requires you to focus and think is too hard, any battle with a high degree of challenge is unfair.

 

Nowadays, it can't be just about the gameplay. No, it's got to be about experiencing a story. Only stories that games can tell, a game developer will tell you, as they describe their game as "cinematic," a term you would use to describe something similar to a movie, which is not what a video game is. And if that gameplay hinders your ability to witness the story exactly as they intended, then it's bad.

 

Remember guys, a "'game over' is a state of failure more for the game designer than from the player. It's like creating an artificial loop saying, 'You didn't play the game the way I wanted you to play, so now you're punished and you're going to come back and play it again until you do what I want you to do.'" - David Cage

 

That's very well put.  I've said much the same a number of times, though not quite so concisely.  For a lot of modern gamers, this is quite accurate.

 

The funny thing is, no matter what game you play, aside from DQ (I don't know, maybe one or two other games in the whole history of videogames), you lose everything.  So you play for 2, 3, 4, 5 hours straight, and forget to use those...you know, uber fast and simplistic save feature, you lose everything.  How many broken controllers are accounted for because of that very problem of player stupidity for forgetting to save?  How is that not punishing?  What about broken game discs or destroyed carts over a real "game over" after getting a rare item and dying on the WAY to the save point, or dying just before recalling...oops, it's time to save, for those games that allow saving anywhere?

 

Nevermind one of my favourite topics is, "OMG I/Brother/Sister/Friend/Girlfriend/Boyfriend saved OVER my main game," and you had 50/60/70/300/1,000 hours of play.  All for 10s to save rather than 20~30s, and the double check to assure you're not overwriting the wrong save file.  I don't know, given how important the function is, and how common lost or destroyed, or overwritten saves is...I mean it's not like your entire game experience and bragging rights over them isn't written into having that save intact.  What about perfectionists, or those who really want to push the envelope and max out, or try for the maximum possible damage against the final boss, or there's a bonus boss or set of them that require excessive post-game grinding?  I don't know, if you had to take a bit of time off, and came back, started a new game, and because of a long day at work, and some bad decisions to drink alcohol before playing, you SAVED OVER YOUR main game, because you wanted a system you didn't have to think about, that allowed no double checks or second guesses in those moments when you're not thinking straight.  You know that extra few seconds?  I guess it's just too agonizing to wade through a few extra menus that pop up instantly, and while archaic, are pretty damn intelligent.

 

What ever happened to different, unique approaches?  Oh, I forgot, by different and unique, a lot of people mean they want more of the same, and it's a load of bull, all talk.  Or different is a perception of past versus present.  OH, we have it so different now, so it's better!  Nevermind the same "different" is repeated endlessly amongst virtually every game over the past 10 years, rendering "different" archaic, and thus old-hat is now recycled if you actually want new and unique, because it's not commonly experienced in the present.  Nevermind the very notion of innovation is a mind$#!& misnomer.  There's nothing new under the sun, nothing in this universe is innovative, except to take an idea and make it your own, knowing that somewhere, at some point, in the past, present, or future, someone else will come up with the same unique perspective, or similar enough to be classified as such should the two be directly compared.  Let's forget about reality and logical breakdowns of chaotic disassociative concepts and notions of what it's supposed to be based on desired perception.

 

A smart man once said the following: man is stupid.  He either believes something to be true because he wishes it to be true, or because he fears it to be true.

Square Enix and their handling of their various Eidos franchises only goes to show how they are still the same company they ever were, with or without Yoichi Wada. They still flush money down the toilet, they still lack communication skills, and they still fail to properly allocate their resources.

 

Too true, but they ARE improving.

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Losing save games is the worst. I'd rather be informed about it and be annoyed that it's a bit intrusive rather than be mad that I lost a save. I recently got a friend into Pokémon, and they picked up Diamond, and claimed to me that they stopped playing because it was a used copy with a save file already on the game and they were never told that you can't overwrite it with a new game, you have to delete the old file before starting the game, so all of their effort was wasted. The most terrifying instance for me was when I came home from a trips to my grandparent's home when I was young and heard that a little girl at the party I was returning home to was allowed to play my Pokémon Silver save. Hundreds of hours, all my lvl 100 Pokémon, everything I worked for could have been lost if not for the fact that she had to manually save, which she didn't because she was a little kid that didn't know any better.

 

Unique and different is very relative for people. Some might disregard Dante's Inferno, which I've recently been playing, simply because it's gameplay is just God of War's from top to bottom. However, I feel like the setting, enemies, and sound design (strange thing to credit since I've never done that before) are much more appealing to me than what God of War could offer me instead, and none of those elements would have benefitted if it was surrounded by unique gameplay. If the gameplay works, it doesn't matter if it's derivative of something else if the rest of the pieces of the whole can differentiate itself. Basically, it doesn't matter where gameplay comes from and if it's wholly different so long as stuff like the story, monsters, setting, and all that good stuff are something unique. Besides, if you like God of War's gameplay, why would you complain about a game that has the same gameplay that you like?

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I don't even think Dragon Quest's save system wastes that much time in comparison to other RPG's. While games like Final Fantasy, Bravely Default, Rogue Galaxy etc. have faster save systems, I find myself constantly saving in these games because you lose all your progress since your last save when you die. Dragon Quest's save system might be slower, but I only save, like, once an hour, because I don't have to worry about losing my items and levels. Going ten times an hour through a 10 second save screen, or once an hour through a 30 second one... in a way, Dragon Quest's system might even save time for some players. And like some others mentioned before, it prevents accidentally overwriting the wrong save file.

 

I'd be pretty disappointed if they changed the current way of saving. It's charming, it's far less immersion-breaking than a random floating sparkle/crystal/question mark, and it also fits with Dragon Quest's overall slow pacing.

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Oh Kotaku. You haven't been relevant in some 10 years. They just have to generate clicks by complaining about something arbitrary.

 

They've had a quicksave feature in the games for at least the last 16 years.

I commented that I had to swipe 8 times to read that article, and maybe that's why the website never took off. We'll see if it gets approved and posted.
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rolf at the kotaku article

 

Oh and Awesomeinblue was being sarcastic.

this lol i just edited the post saying it was a joke, but its probably too late

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I don't even think Dragon Quest's save system wastes that much time in comparison to other RPG's. While games like Final Fantasy, Bravely Default, Rogue Galaxy etc. have faster save systems, I find myself constantly saving in these games because you lose all your progress since your last save when you die. Dragon Quest's save system might be slower, but I only save, like, once an hour, because I don't have to worry about losing my items and levels. Going ten times an hour through a 10 second save screen, or once an hour through a 30 second one... in a way, Dragon Quest's system might even save time for some players. And like some others mentioned before, it prevents accidentally overwriting the wrong save file.

 

I'd be pretty disappointed if they changed the current way of saving. It's charming, it's far less immersion-breaking than a random floating sparkle/crystal/question mark, and it also fits with Dragon Quest's overall slow pacing.

 

Bloody post bump limitations...I'd give you a point if the damn forums will let me, but I guess it'll be another 12 or so hours before the "day" period is up.

 

Yeah, the more I think about it, this is so true.  Even when FF games are easy, there are those surprising moments where something horrible can happen.  Like a death spell that connected effectively on the whole party, or a boss managing to unleash all its greatest attacks back to back instead of sporadically, and managed to take my party down.  It's happened before.  Quite frustrating losing an hour or so.

 

DQ games, I save everytime I stop, or every 3~4 hours.  I just leave the system and game on. <<-damn APA...why can't spelling/grammar checkers use old MLA rules.  I remember when compound words were something to be celebrated...yeah, you have options!  One space or no space, choose your path!

Edited by ignasia7

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Your responses are the reason this community is the best. It resonates with all of us that the failures of a parent company can truly destroy the legacy of its offspring. I fell in love with DW when I was a 6 year old and when I never got the sequel I nearly lost it. Finally when emulators became a thing I discovered roms to DW 2,3,4 and the burning love was rekindled. Then something insane happened. I saw a used copy of a PS 1 game called DW VII and completely lost my mind. WHERE ARE V AND IV??? I am so lost!! After VIII came out I gave up hope until all the ds remakes finally came to America.

 

All this to say the following. If not for the love of a well designed game with elements that endear us all regardless of visual appeal or technological advances, there would be no other reason for Westerners to want to play these games. The Kotaku writer is so oblivious but who can blame him? My own angst at SE for how they have always handled my beloved series is simply and partially represented in his article. Sure he whines about something none of us care about, but most likely his true and deep running issues are with the fact that the series was never made out to be one he should play more than 10-15 hrs beccase he could just go play a linear FF2 and be done with it. Grrrrr. Heck in 10 hrs you could almost conclude that game.

 

Anyway, I think it's fair to hate on DQ when it always feels like it was set up for failure here in America. Thankfully we're all here, together, to celebrate it for what it truly is. The best JRPG series of all time.

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You lose stuff when you die.

 

You lose half of your gold after a party wipe out. You don't lose anything else(except for the time needed to get back to where you were since your last save).

That's the first thing I thought after reading that sentence. He says he's always had a soft spot for DQ, but apparently he never learned what happens and what does not happen in these games.

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There was a comment about the first battle in DQ VII coming four hours into the game.

 

I like to talk to everyone in RPGs. I talk to them again whenever something changes in the story.

 

Not even so did it take me 4 hours to get into the first battle.

 

So that guy was either truly slow in discovering what had to be done or just exaggerating the time to add more fuel to the conversation. In both cases, he makes me think of someone who would not play RPGs without strictly following a walkthrough, so it would take very little time to get to the battles.

 

All in all, people in that page are just whining in a sad example of group behavior.

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 Thankfully we're all here, together, to celebrate it for what it truly is. The best JRPG series of all time.

 

Yes, very good point.  That's what we should be doing.  Like the way I love my Signifigant Other regardless of societal stigma. 

 

To Hell with the rest of the world, we love what we love, and we unite in that spirit.

 

I had my rant about the failings of the company that produces these games earlier in the thread, and that goes to show the lengths to which we go for our games.  The attention to detail and history.

 

I'd love to just bury the hatchets and celebrate the upcoming game in the other threads, not quibble over the rest of the world's foibles.

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