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Glaceon Mage

Rhapthorne's Seal logic

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Rhapthorne's actions are fridge-logic worthy, when game mechanics are considered. Why aren't characters who definitely left a body (right in front of the party) resurrected by the church, or by Angelo/The Hero/Jessica with (Ka)Zing?

 

And then there's the seal mechanics itself. Why don't Jessica and Marta's son hold the seal? They're of the bloodline, meaning their seals logically have a next in line. Why doesn't the sageship just go to the next person?

 

I am... really confused now. What makes these special exceptions to things?

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It's called suspension of disbelief. Pretty much all Dragon Quest games has a character that dies forever even though a party member knows kazing.

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The spells Zing or Kazing are not the caster reviving the person but rather the Goddess doing it.  They're basically just asking and the Goddess needs to have a pretty damn good excuse to revive somebody and thus unless you're super important to saving the world you are not certain to be allowed to be revived.

 

Least that's my personal take on it.

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Well, considering that Rhapthorne, through his avatars, was killing these descendants so that he could be revived, and only through all of their deaths could he escape his seal, I'd say they were pretty important.

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The spells Zing or Kazing are not the caster reviving the person but rather the Goddess doing it.  They're basically just asking and the Goddess needs to have a pretty damn good excuse to revive somebody and thus unless you're super important to saving the world you are not certain to be allowed to be revived.

 

Least that's my personal take on it.

I would imagine David/Abbot Francisco/The Lord High Priest, due to being part of a seal on an ancient obese demon thing, would be very important for the world's safety.

 

And that still doesn't answer the Jessica/Marta's son plothole.

It's called suspension of disbelief. Pretty much all Dragon Quest games has a character that dies forever even though a party member knows kazing.

The only time I can really think of someone dying in front of the protagonist outside VIII is Pankraz and Mada in V, the protagonist was both six and passed out for Pankraz, and both were burned beyond salvage-ability.

 

Am I just forgetting someone?

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I meant dies in general, not necessarily in front of someone, but if we were gonna be that specifically, you could also include Ortega in III, everyone in the Hero's village in IV, your examples from V, the sage descendants in VIII, Aquila died in front of the hero in IX too, right? Knowledge of kazing or zing at the time of death doesn't necessarily matter. I could spend the whole game with a dead party member and revive them at any time.

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Considering the seal is released the moment they're killed with the staff, you could say they're actually not that important anymore after they die.

 

Though I think resurrection in general is something that's only available to the chosen ones IE the protagonists.

Edited by The n00b Avenger

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But the seal doesn't weaken with each death. From what I could tell, the seal was released once every descendent was killed, not that there's much logic with that to begin with. So if they were presumably revived, Rhapthorne would need to kill them again to come back.

 

And keep in mind that Zing and Kazing are just in-the-field spells. Priests can revive party members too and offer it as a service they charge for, not because the party is important.

 

Again, suspension of disbelief. Not really worth poking holes in. Revival is simply a game mechanic.

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No, when you see him kill the Abbot with the staff they go out of their way to show that the seal on the staff is lifting and that something happened. There's definitely an immediate effect

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This is the same kind of discussion that spawned after FF7, complete with cries of "but I had Phoenix Downs!"

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I went through and watched a few cutscenes where whomever is carrying the scepter kills a descendent. That glow could just as much indicate that it's increasing the power within the scepter, not necessarily a weakening of the seal itself. Why would Dhoulmagus go around killing descendants and freeing Rhapthorne? He was in pursuit of greater and greater power and after he killed the Abbot, he commented on the staff's growing power and started glowing with energy himself. He didn't seem to be under Rhapthorne's influence the same way Jessica and Leopold were.

 

This is the same kind of discussion that spawned after FF7, complete with cries of "but I had Phoenix Downs!"

I'm enjoying it. I treat revival in any game the same way I do in a game where a character tells you "If you want to open the menu, press 'Start.'"

Edited by eal

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Dhoulmagus was definitely under Rhapthorne's influence, wtf. Why do you think he was tracking down and killing the people responsible for the seal? Why do you think his appearance suddenly changes? Why do you think they show a cutscene where he literally says "I can't control it" and then starts bursting out laughing, signifying the moment where Rhapthorne takes over? The only one who resisted Rhapthorne's influence was Marcello, that's why he was a big deal.

 

And the idea that killing the sages is the condition for the seal and having the staff powering up afterwards and yet saying those 2 things are somehow unrelated seems illogical. It's more natural to assume that the staff powering up from killing the sages and breaking the seal on the staff are one in the same.

Edited by The n00b Avenger

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Dhoulmagus also spoke with his normal voice. Jessica and Marcello spoke with Rhapthorne's voice mixed with their own, while Leopold spoke with Rhapthorne's when they were fully possessed. Dhoulmagus was only after power. It wasn't until the staff passes on to the other's, it became clear the goal had shifted to freeing himself. And laughing isn't necessarily a characteristic of Rhapthorne. He wasn't laughing particularly hard when he took control of Leopold or Marcello, never as much as Dhoulmagus did.

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I don't think basing it on something that's only present in the English dub is wise. As far as I could tell, there was no such effect in the Japanese voice acting in the 3DS version for Jessica's voice. Just an echo effect.

 

And the laughing isn't the point, the point is the pained and panicked delivery over not being able to control the staff compared to the delightful laughter immediately afterwards. There's an obvious change they intended to show there. This also seems to be the exact moment in which his appearance changes.

Edited by The n00b Avenger

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Maybe, but I would like to point out that my whole stance on the original issue was needing a "suspension of disbelief," so worrying so much about semantics isn't something I'm necessarily concerned with really. Especially when it pertains to the goofy logic that goes with how Rhapthorne escapes his scepter. I presented a couple good examples from previous games anyways, VIII aside.

Edited by eal

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Well this topic exploded since I last saw it.

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I would imagine David/Abbot Francisco/The Lord High Priest, due to being part of a seal on an ancient obese demon thing, would be very important for the world's safety.

 

 

It's entirely probable that being killed as part of a ritual sacrifice would render you unable to be revived even by the Goddess.

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It's a trope in all sorts of rpgs. Why couldn't you just revive Aerith in Fonal Fantasy? When the plot says someone dies, than they die, and there's nothing you or the characters can do about it.

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