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Nintendo's localizations.


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It's just really hard for me to understand. I've been playing RPGs for all my life since I was 7 or even earlier. Lore and characters have always been a big focus for me. Sure, gameplay is important as well, but that's often not what has made those RPGs memorable. It was always the characters, their story, their struggle and the overall story of their adventure to beat the big evil that is threatening their world that captivated me. 

 

Saying you'd prefer for all dialog to be cut is just foreign. I do accept that it's your opinion, but please don't argue towards this. You can always skip dialog, for people that actually enjoy dialog, it's gone forever once the creator decides to cut it. You are basically advocating to take enjoyment from others away, when you could just skip it with some button presses.

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Good localization: Everyone enjoys the game.   Bad localization: People that don't care enjoy the game. People that do care enjoy it less.    But with people actually defending changes like "..

I didn't say it would be my last post, just the last big one. To address your last comment, I would have bought the game regardless of what they did or did not cut. Gameplay is important but so is sto

I disagree. You can argue that it was "just" amplified, and I'll argue that it destroyed the rest of her character. She isn't shy anymore. Shy isn't soft spoken anymore. She's just this muscle packed

I never said that all the dialog should be cut from FE. I was just saying that I'd personally prefer it in order to make a point that changes in localization being better/worse is subjective. Obviously I recognize that it's a big part of the game and lots of people enjoy it. I'm not one of those people who say "If I don't like it then it shouldn't be allowed to exist" I'm saying "I don't like it so I'm not playing it", but that doesn't mean I think other people shouldn't enjoy it.

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Then we are basically on the same page. I don't advocate for people not to buy the game. I even encourage to buy the japanese game and apply a fan translation. I'm eager to buy the game as well as soon as it releases in EU. I just wish I could enjoy a good localization and don't have to deal with all these cuts and character changes that I completely dislike.

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Then I misread what you said, Vagrant.

 

I share the same sentiment with Calem, actually. I'm going to import the FEF JP and patch it. But do we really have to go through all that as customers to get a proper product...? Patching isn't as easy as it seems for those that have only homebrew. And having to import costs more money. 

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I immediately said that my opinion wasn't the point after I said I'd prefer a Fire Emblem game with no dialog. Basically from reading this thread my stance is this:

 

There's going to be people who are going to enjoy are more localized version of Fire Emblem..

 

There's going to be people who are going to enjoy a more Japanese version of Fire Emblem.

 

Both sides are basically saying "Nintendo should localize the game THIS way because I prefer it that way, therefore it's better"

 

There's no way to please everyone, and because on the nature of translating Japanese to English; the only way to get the experience the game was originally made for without knowing both the Japanese Language and culture, so I don't really see what's wrong with changing the game some for a different audience to be able to enjoy the game. I feel like what Nintendo is doing is a decent compromise since it allows for the most amount of people to enjoy it, but again, no matter what they do people are going to disagree, and not everyone will be satisfied. You can't please everyone.

Edited by SlimeVagrant
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I don't think Its being localized in house.  A game this large will take a couple years to translate/localize and i doubt treehouse has the time to translate it  while already being busy with other projects. For DQ7 to be out this year, it had to been worked on since at least 2014 if not 2013.

 

People really need to chill out with the whole oh Nintendo is involves they are going to screw up the game!!!! Like people already are on twitter.

 

Plus Alpha is probably working on it. 

Edited by sounderfan84
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Exactly, that's why I don't think it matters what Nintendo does to it. People will prefer the first option and people will prefer the second option. Either way people will enjoy the game, and people won't enjoy the game, so there's not a big difference.

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Good localization:

Everyone enjoys the game.

 

Bad localization:

People that don't care enjoy the game.

People that do care enjoy it less. 

 

But with people actually defending changes like "..." there is no way to argue this point. Nothing that can be done.

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My concern is that DQ7 will not sell well.  Not due to poor marketing or bad translation/localization but people calling it terribble cause Nintendo is associated with it and refuse to buy it.

Edited by sounderfan84
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Eal, a few things.  I actually do own several Fire Emblem games, and while I'm not a fan of the gameplay mechanics, I do enjoy the lore and character building, especially since Awakening.  That said, it's like saying someone who saw a person steal a woman's purse has no right to complain or find fault with the behaviour of the assailant, because it did not happen to the witness.  It's a logical fallacy to assume one cannot have an opinion or form a just opinion, especially in light of something that is part of an industry that affects all gamers at large.  What happens in one company, and what one company can get away with, usually ripples out and affects others.  The larger and more profound the company or individual who acts in either a positive or negative manner, the greater the rippling effect.  Same goes for oil companies dumping into river as it does for videogame producers and localization practices, or the local bully politician continuously getting away with parking in the handicap when he/she has no handicap sign.

 

Matt...please stop with the pedophilia references.  It doesn't validate your argument, and instead trashes it because it assumes a position of the mind that is not apparent to anyone.  First off, Xenoblade Chronicles X having a boob slider has NOTHING to do with having a 13-year old synthetic human girl.  You don't change the boob size on the girl, you change it on YOUR character.  There are three arguments here, one is realism, because you create a character that is essentially ageless.  Having a boob slider means you're allowing actual character creation where I can make her boobs smaller or bigger, depending on what I personally want.  It's not wrong, it's simply a factor of life.  Women have different breast sizes.  For a woman, it's the same approach, except maybe a woman or girl wishes to create a character that has her own form, and maybe she happens to have larger OR smaller breasts and cannot do so.  Sure there are guys and girls who are perverts who will simply make a giant set because they happen to like that, but so what?  That's their life, and you cannot control it by removing something that's present.  They'll just pick the teammates with the largest breasts anyhow.  Sure, you can make the argument that most games have no boob sliders, so why complain about the lack of one in this game?  Well because it IS part of the game, and is part of the character creation experience, and it IS a standard feature now in most character creation systems where you can make women.  Hell, some even have one for a bulg in the pants.  Is that wrong because I want to represent my  character with the size junk I have?  No, it's just realism.  Even if I want it to be huge or small, it then becomes a joke.  I laugh because it's funny.  What about trans people?  What about intersex people?  What if a trans man to woman wants boobage that represents what they see as the optimal body type.  You're saying this person is a pervert for representing themselves?

 

What about real life.  Breasts are all around you.  You walk anywhere and you'll see women, each with distinguishing body features.  How do you think that would feel if you decided that all women should be represented as a one-size-fits-all?  What does that say to a woman?  What about appreciation for the female form?  I find it intoxicating and beautiful, nothing to be ashamed of admiring.  I'm proud to call myself a heterosexual man, but that's me.  If someone wants to be homosexual, or is born seeing the world through that lens, then great, good for them.  I do not care.  My appreciation for any woman I've been with and for being around women, and knowing that I see them as just another person to talk to if I want to is not objectification.  Most of my friends are women, about 60/40.  Why, because as much as I adore women for simply being women, I love talking and knowing and befriending women.  My point is, you're automatically asserting that a guy, in being a guy, is a pervert and a sick and disgusting pedophile by default and definition.  That's wrong, and it also says that women, physically, are not something to admire.  That it's somehow wrong to have feelings or enjoyment at watching a woman simply BEING a woman.  Or hell, what does that say about women who like guys who are guys?  Or men who like other men for being men?  Or women who admire the physical, emotional, and mental aspects of women?  Are they all sick perverts as well, just because they know what they like and appreciate it?  Of course not.

 

Cultural appropriation?  That's a joke right?  Think about what that means.  In the past the message was that one should learn to adopt, exist around, and appreciate other cultures for what they bring to the table, and that the concept of America was that of Rome and Athens before it: bring in those from other cultures, force them to assimilate to the core value system that makes the new world/country united as a single body and functioning as is, but have them bring their culture, their songs, their dances, and anything that doesn't conflict, and celebrate it for what it is.  So what do you want, everyone to exist as a vanilla form?  You do realize that imitation IS the most sincere form of flattery, right?  What about people who adopt aspects of a writing style of another culture?  How do you think most cultures developed at all?  What do you think culture is?  People don't just come up with culture out of the blue.  Most of it is borrowed from other cultures, via traveling, then adapted to the culture that "appropriated" it, so it's either altered, or kept in some way.  Every culture, as a result of this, shares similar elements in a given area, and the more widespread that culture due to trade, the more variations of the larger culture are seen in various subcultures along the trade routes.  You realize that "white culture...AMERICAN white culture and Western European culture" are the two most profoundly copied cultures in existence right now?  How many places can you go in the world to find business suits?  What about brief cases, or specific greeting rituals such as shaking hands?  Quite a number.  It's not a negative to display someone from a different culture in a video game.  Nor in books.  To do so would be to pretend such people's don't exist at all, and should simply be ignored as something not part of history, or something not worth emulating.

 

The whole concept of cultural "appropriation" as being this big and horrible thing, much like sexism today, and racism, stems from critical theory.  I suggest reading into the basic tenants of the theory, and the basic premise as to what the proprietors and creators of it wanted to do to first the US, then the world.  Then the planned cultural marxist revolution under a banner.

 

Pretending other cultures don't exist, and pretending that it's somehow an insult to wear a sombrero is COUNTER to liberalism.  Liberalism is the celebration of individualism, even if that refers to individual characters of REGIONS and CULTURES.  It seeks to find positive attributes about other cultures to bring to light, to celebrate in unison with that culture.  Sure, some versions of this are ridiculous, such as the downing of shots of tequila for example, when in Mexico they drink it slowly, like a wine.  Let's face it though, this aspect of humanity, of bringing in cultural elements of others is why we even have cheese in the US.  Why we have pizza, burgers...why we build in one city roman-esque buildings and in another part adobe, and in another skyrises, and in yet another some amalgamation of greeco-roman meditarianian and egyptian style housing, and in another shantytowns and basic podunk American houses and victorian style town-houses.

 

Why do you buy into that bullshit.  Playing that card really says other cultures aren't worth mentioning or appreciating, or wanting to be apart of, or learning about, or expanding your own horizons.

 

 

I see Varuna has been banned.  May I ask why?  I saw nothing in his posts that indicated he went overboard or was attempting to be insulting to any dissenting opinion.  If it's a question as to whether or not he's Mortamor in disguise, my guess would be no, though they clearly share similar opinions, and are both rather obstinate, Mortamor's mannerisms tend to sway to the side of absolutism and attempting to shut down opposite opinions as though the individual is insane for having them.  Something I haven't noticed in Varuna's posting style.

 

The discussion seemed rather civil on his end.  Though I realize he rubs a few people the wrong way.

 

 

I never said that all the dialog should be cut from FE. I was just saying that I'd personally prefer it in order to make a point that changes in localization being better/worse is subjective.

 

I have to disagree with you on this.

 

There is a subjective element to the argument of whether you like the localization choices or not, but there is also an objective argument as to whether the changes remove core elements of the story and character development that are crucial to better understand the flow of the story, and whether it is ethical and moral to alter completely the original intent of the author.

 

There's also the objective argument that localization choices water down or dumb down the original content, which is an easily provable and disprovable black and white element.

 

There's the question as to whether removal or alteration is necessary for a different audience, and that is the purpose of a localization, taking colloquialisms and inside jokes that only make sense to a Japanese audience, or someone who closely follows Japan and the customs and history of its people, and replacing it with similar cultural elements related to the release of the localized item.

 

In this case the actions taken have removed much of the meat of each character, and altered the lore, while at the same time dumbing down the actual dialogue itself, as though one is being spoken to by children.  Topped off with very poor grammar that is blantant.  Sure, I can see the point of toning down some elements revolving sexual innuendo between a brother and a sister, but removing the characteristic femininity and vulnerable aspects of one character, and instead turning that character into a tough uber badass just changes the character completely, and needlessly.  We seem to have this fear that someone a woman actually BEING feminine at all is a negative.  Yet a guy who comes off as vulnerable is more acceptable.  I'm all for keeping characters as they were originally written.

 

It just becomes a mess that ruins the story and enjoyment of that aspect of the game, and for someone like me, who really doesn't enjoy the gameplay of Fire Emblem (I just don't like RPS rules in strategy games), but appreciates the deep lore of the series...eh, it ruins the fun for me.  Even if it was about the gameplay, the expectations I have now, especially given we've crossed the threshhold of the old days of "omg skin" or "omg religion" or "omg violence" or thought we had, it feels so wrong to return to that, especially pushed by people claiming to be for liberalism, which I'm all for.  If you don't like something as portrayed, just don't buy it.  If you don't think your kids can handle it, then don't buy it.  I read The Lord of the Rings at the age of 12, and the Silmarillion, and The Hobbit when I was 9...and these have love stories, murder, complex characters, mystery and political intrigue.  I couldn't comprehend everything, but I did understand the basic ghist, and wasn't scared by the material.  Frankly what I've read of FE: Fates is nothing compared the same level present in LotR.  Kids can handle this, especially when I wasn't given sex education or anything remotely similar until 10th grade HS, but I could've told you what sex was at 7, along with my friends, at least a very childish version of it.  I still remember being annoyed by my mother insisting on the Birds and Bees story (she's VERY old fashioned).

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Nah, I've been monitoring the industry for a long time. With all the hype surrounding DQ it will definitely sell well. The only mistake that Nintendo can make is to not market it properly so that people won't be aware that it was even released. DQ has a huge international fanbase that is eager for new games. Discussion about DQ games is happening on all of the big discussion platforms like neogaf, gamefaqs, /v/, reddit, etc. Assuming they advertise it properly, it will sell pretty good from anticipation alone. 

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Nah, I've been monitoring the industry for a long time. With all the hype surrounding DQ it will definitely sell well. The only mistake that Nintendo can make is to not market it properly so that people won't be aware that it was even released. DQ has a huge international fanbase that is eager for new games. Discussion about DQ games is happening on all of the big discussion platforms like neogaf, gamefaqs, /v/, reddit, etc. Assuming they advertise it properly, it will sell pretty good from anticipation alone. 

 

Its just with the outrage of how Nintendo handled FE, it'll drag other games with it.  Just read some of the recent twitter comments with DQ7. And you understand my concern. 

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I'll say this about DQ7 and the localization:

 

Nintendo will have limited say.  This, like with DQ6 and 9 is more about the direction SE wishes to take things in.

What my concern with is this direction of Nintendo of late is pure censorship, and censorship is wrong, because it assumes something is wrong inherently, or that the audience isn't capable of understanding some even minor adult themes, or the idea of someone, especially a woman, showing some skin is apparently abhorrent (strange given the same people who complain about this go on slut walks stark naked).

 

Just some thoughts based on a small conversation I've had with sounderfan.  DQ7's translation, for anyone worried, has almost no chance at all of being affected by Treehouse or any of the current trends in a few places for censorship.  If any call is made it would be SE, and I don't think SE cares much for it.  If any approach is made, it's to just reword the scenario down so it downplays the darker elements, but doesn't outright remove them, much like the former DQ's have been handled since the merger.

 

 

Nah, I've been monitoring the industry for a long time. With all the hype surrounding DQ it will definitely sell well. The only mistake that Nintendo can make is to not market it properly so that people won't be aware that it was even released. DQ has a huge international fanbase that is eager for new games. Discussion about DQ games is happening on all of the big discussion platforms like neogaf, gamefaqs, /v/, reddit, etc. Assuming they advertise it properly, it will sell pretty good from anticipation alone. 

 

We're much in agreement on this.  The anticipation is quite huge, and underplayed by most DQ fan communities.  If SE and Nintendo don't realize this yet, and don't pony up the money, and don't promote it together, it'll still sell well, but this time there's a chance for a major breakthrough.  The air is electrifying at this point, and the interest going into the release announcement of DQH, for DQ7 alone, was HUGE from even the KH and FF communities online.  So definitely.

Edited by ignasia7
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I think Nintendo will have some suggestions at most.  Hero's uncle for example could get a few adjustments. 

I doubt it.  Not given the choices made for DQ's 6, 9, and Joker 2, which follow the same lines as the handling of 8, 4, 5, Joker, Swords, Heroes, and Rocket Slime.

 

Recall that DQ6 made it VERY obvious, through clever writing that Milly was rapped, and that the former king of Gandino had underage girls as a harem, who his wife killed if she was jealous of their looks.  Nothing Borkano's brother does is even close to that horrible.  Hell, Terry was beaten to a pulp, and they even went out to find him and finish the job, but didn't and the Gandino thugs just went back to town, thinking Terry would die in the wilderness of his wounds gained at their hands...Hondara has nothing on that either, and that was under Nintendo taking full control from SE, not even a shared responsibility as this seems to be (given SE actually acknowledged DQ7 and 8's release after Nintendo).

 

Then there's all the stuff in Longadeseo...err I mean Turnscote, which is VERY highly suggestive content.  VERY obvious to us as adults, but a kid would think the guys in the audience were just appreciating the bunny girls, but for us, it's like...hooo boy.  Even the drunkards...and Mortamor's speech and threats, and the whole Prison in the Dread Realm, and how the monsters talked, and the horrible vile language and behaviour of the Greedmore valley people...I mean it goes on.  DQ6 never had its dark themes really tampered with, even the beginning which clearly has more Plus Alpha markers, has some suggestive elements, and never tamped down on how nasty a human being the mayor of Port Haven is, or the lewd commentary about Illyena by the Dreamworld men of Amor.

 

So in essence, I'm not worried.

Edited by ignasia7
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I probably should've defined "better or worse" better than I did.

 

I wasn't trying to say that the choices don't dumb down the original content, because it certainly does, I was just trying to say that dumbing it down doesn't necessarily mean that less people will enjoy it.

 

As for the changes removing core elements required to understand the flow of the story, I'm the wrong person to answer. While I've looked at the pictures and seen the changes I haven't played the game and thus don't have any real context for the dialog, so I have no idea.

 

As for it being morally/ethically correct to change the content of the original author, that's trickier. If your translating the game I believe it's ethical to make some changes, but I have to agree that a lot of the changes shown here are so different that the decision to altar them in such a way is questionable at best. I don't really know how the localization process works, so for all I know these decisions were approved by the original author in which case, I don't really see a problem.

 

Edit: I also had no idea that Varuna got banned. I think he was being unnecessarily mean to Bururian sometimes, but I don't think he should've gotten banned for it. We all have bad days.

Edited by SlimeVagrant
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Its just with the outrage of how Nintendo handled FE, it'll drag other games with it.  Just read some of the recent twitter comments with DQ7. And you understand my concern.

Believe it or not, but social media isn't such a strong factor as it seems to be. Especially when it's still far away from the release date. Nintendo hasn't even started drumming up hype for the game. Lots of games that have been criticized tons on social media and discussion platforms still sold pretty well. Latest example might be The Witness (very expensive, but long puzzle game)and Firewatch (too expensive for a 1h 30m walking simulator). Both have been criticized tons, but still sold exceptionally well.

 

Till the game releases, people will have moved on from the localization issue and the critics you are currently seeing won't be as loud anymore.

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That's a very very good point on DQ6.  I didn't consider that DQ6 had worse stuff than DQ7 did.

 

 

I mean overall 7 is just a darker game, because it's always in your face, and nonstop.  There's no respite from the wrath of the demon lord's minions.  It's a nice change of pace, and then you hit Dharma...Alltrade's, and BAM, the world turns on its face, and you're slammed with being a forever slave, where the only outlet is to give up your soul and desire the death and destruction of others, all to feed the monsters.  Now that's some dark stuff, but it's monsters doing it to humans, not humans to other humans.  Or the second the last scenario, and the poor priest, and the present world version where you're essentially to be blamed for the faults of the townsfolk, who were essentially blameless because they were too frightened to want to learn the truth, or to be able to accept it.  I mean the darker elements of 7 are just a different approach from 6, and even 5.

 

 

Till the game releases, people will have moved on from the localization issue and the critics you are currently seeing won't be as loud anymore.

 

That's also true for the fact that it will be well known that Treehouse wasn't actually involved, or the screenshots that indicate certain story elements are clearly untouched, and the feel is similar to other DQ localization work (as it seems to be from what little we've seen so far), and the history of the modern DQ localizations, on top of the fervor for just seeing it finally released, so we can all enjoy it.

Edited by ignasia7
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Dang it I was hoping to avoid DQ7 spoilers until I could play the 3DS version.

Oh well, I guess I shouldn't be on this forum if I care that much about avoiding them.

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There's also the fact that a lot of the fervor over DQ7's localization and Nintendo is to give an early warning sign that the fans, or at least a vocal group of fans, want Nintendo to know how people will feel and react if they destroy or muck with the integrity of DQ7's script.  It'll die down on its own, but it's little different from say, the Tea Party or Occupy Walstreet in politics.  It's a warning not to pull shady stuff.

 

I don't begrudge them their fears, especially in light of XBCX, and now FE:F.


Dang it I was hoping to avoid DQ7 spoilers until I could play the 3DS version.

Oh well, I guess I shouldn't be on this forum if I care that much about avoiding them.

 

Crap, sorry about that Slime.  That was pretty careless of me.  Um...play other games and you'll forget about it soon enough.

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You're probably right my memory isn't the best.  :laugh:

 

Either way it's not that big a deal, no worries.

Edited by SlimeVagrant
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I see Varuna has been banned.  May I ask why?

He was banned for the egregious offense of "being DevilSpree".   In that regard, it's not at all his actions in this thread that caused him to be banned.  Simply being DevilSpree is a bannable offense.

Edited by King Zenith
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If I'm honest with myself, I could have enjoyed this game (I currently am) perfectly fine without ever being the wiser.  That being said, I don't really appreciate most of the changes; particularly the outright omissions.  I'm pretty vocal about being against PC pandering, but I'm not sure if that's what is going on, here.  It just looks like a few bad judgement calls were made during the localization, to me; with a dash of laziness thrown in for good measure.  My main concern, as others have stated, is the possibility of localizations getting worse as we continue to settle for more and more of it, but that is only speculation at this point in time.  All told, the game is excellent and the localization stands up fine when taken on its own merits, imho.  The main precedent being set by this game that I take issue with (albeit a small one) is the dual release.  I believe we will continue to see FE released this way considering Fates' success.  Again, imho only, anyone passing on this game simply for localization changes would be doing themselves a huge disservice.  Just my 2¢

 

Matt:  Breath of Fire 2 came out when I was a teenager and I remember it striking me as pretty dark and disturbing, especially for its time.  You reminded me of it earlier in this thread.  I haven't thought about that in quite a while until you mentioned it.  I need to re-visit that series, soon.

 

Iggy:  Yes, I'm getting VERY tired of "cultural appropriation" claims in all aspects of life.  It's gotten utterly insane; mini sombreros, anyone?  St. Patrick's Day is this month, are there any Irishmen complaining of appropriation?  Particularly considering the insinuation that all Irish people are alcoholics?  No?  I didn't think so.  Jeez, something has to give with all this crap.  There is a difference between acting respectful and the PC madness that has taken over people's psyche in recent years.

Edited by Griever
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