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The Don Killuminati

Oh goodness did they absolutely ruin the class system.

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But I LIKE blocks of text; they match the one on my shoulders. ;)  yActually, I would use structured paragraphs, if I could figure out how to on a 3ds browser. Righto, then; first off, you're absolutely right, and I let my emotions get the better of me. I shouldn't have stated that greed was their primary motive, and I apologize for that, as well as rescind the comments. As you stated, though, a download of virtual console dragon quests would be cheaper AND more respectful to the series, and allow for costly remakes to be avoided. Yes, you've made ALOT of excellent points.... but you are STILL skating, albeit gracefully, around the point I've been discussing here the entire time: the class system was NOT flawed, as I've said again. And again. And again. It's OPTIONAL- play it your own way, choose your own destiny! Why, kind sir, must you cling to such an unreasonable position? Did some fans want a remake? Yes, they did. Do you like remakes? Yes, you do. Do I like remakes? Rarely... but it does occur occasionally. BUT did every fan who wanted to play said remake, want a crippled class system? NO, they didn't. Did the option of overpowering require removal? No, it did NOT. And, let's get a few things straight, mate: 1: I have REPEATEDLY stated that dragon warrior 7 is not perfect; that instead, I not only love it greatly, but that it is also hailed as one of the best in the series, by sales or otherwise. 2: The 'flaws' you continue to elude to, are merely an opinionated criticism of percieved ideas of difficulty, and not acual, intelligible, or universally problematic features. 3: I was, pardon for not saying so sooner, referring to square AND enix in the present sense, not to the company of old... OBVIOUSLY. Lastly, no, it was not my intentions to personally attack Yuji Horii, and I respect and admire the three men who, by and large, are respncible for dragon quest's most endearing qualities- especially Toriyama, being an artist myself. HOWEVER; if it was Horii's decision to butcher the class system, then with all due respect to him, I'm completely against it. No matter how much admiration I've for a man, I'll not blindly follow anyone down the wrong path. Instead, sir, my loyalty lies with the dragon quests themselves, and I stand by perserving their quality and integrity; ESPECIALLY when little was wrong with them originally. You see, a company will change over time; but the quality of the games waver not with time, and instead remain delightful forever. ^_^ Don't misunderstand; they have my support moving onwards, as always, bbbaaaaa-t I'm no sheep. :D Good heavens, Ignasia, you certainly give a humble drak a run for his debatorial money, as it were. I'm quite proud, dear sir, to have you hear with us on the Dragon's den! Hail fellow well met! 

Edited by robotnikthedrak

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Finally, we get to POINT EXTRA!  My favourite part.  I'll keep this brief as well.

You don't seem to understand what "brief" means. But your all your points here are vaild to the point that my sleep-deprived brain can understand.

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LOL, well, I suppose you'll post as you see fit.  We're all a product of ourselves or so the saying goes.

 

I never said classes were not optional.  Simply because classes are optional does not mean the system as devised is not flawed.  I don't have the energy to cover the various flaws inherent in the class system of the original Dragon Quest VII, maybe at some point if I have time and I remember.  Helps to have several TV shows I watch (really only Tuesday and Wednesday nights).

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We stand to learn alot from one another; as human beings, and as dragon quest fans! ^_^

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I have a question actually, never looked into it, but during the SNES era, why did Enix give us so many non-dragon quest games, and not give to us 5 or 6 at all?  Off the top of my head they gave us alot of greats, and a few rotten eggs,  such as.....

 

Soul Blazer

Brain Lord

Illusion of Gaia

Terranigma *EU Release*

7th Saga

Paladin Quest

Ogre Battle

Robotrek

Actraiser

Actraiser 2

E.V.O Search For Eden

 

I remember these cuz I played all of em as a lad, even Terranigma that I picked up during my time in England.  So why didnt they give us DQ5 and 6?  Did it had something to do with DQ4?  I remember when I was a lad, about eight years old when I saw a new copy of Dragon Quest 4, in a showcase at a video game counter in the Navy Exchange in Virginia Beach, sitting there like a trophy of sorts, was 90 Dollars at the time, no b.s, 90 dollars.  Can anyone explain to me the reasoning of it all?

Edited by Alexandrious

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Well, we don't really know.

 

What we do know is this:

 

At the time Enix had a newsletter, at least Enix of America did (they were actually pretty open, and willing to talk if you sent in any letters/mail/etc.).

 

This was like a 3 or 6 month newsletter (to my memory it wasn't consistent, and I have only the last two, the rest I threw out).

 

Anyway, the final two talked about DQ5 and 6.  Second to last was like a year prior to EoA closing its offices.  It had a whole article covering how DQ5 was being localized as Dragon Warrior 5, and they were talking about Dragon Quest 6 in-house, so it might get the green light.

 

Then came the last newsletter, which was like: Yep, still working on 5, 6 is greenlighted and is going into localization after we finish off 5.

 

A few months later EoA closed its offices.  No word on why.  When they reopened, it was to new staff, and nothing was ever said, or seemed to be known or understood on why the initial closing and two year gap before reopening their offices.  When the boards opened up at the end of 2000 there was no official mod, and no way to directly communicate.  Sometime in 2001 Nob, a translator and localizer working for Enix of America, took up the task of moderating the boards and communicating with us.  From what I and others on the boards could gather...EoA ran out of money, or EoJ pulled funding.  Whichever the case, they did not have the funds to continue with releasing new games, so they closed up the offices and EoJ started anew.

 

Even after Nob left the boards for more translation duty, and they brought in a new moderator, who I think started with a J...I can't remember.  Anyway, he had no idea of anything.

 

That's all I know, but to recap:

 

So yes, they WERE going to release DQ5 and 6.  Offices closed due to funds, no known cause, and that was that.  No more talk of 5 or 6 when they reopened because DQ7 was up and coming and the SNES was long since dead.

 

 

Anyway, speculation on my part, but I believe they postponed 5 due to the decreasing sales with each new Dragon Warrior after Enix took over localizing.   2 sold about half of 1 (well, assuming every giveaway of 1 counts as a sale), 3 sold far less than half of 2, and 4 even less than 3.  The other games were as a result of refocusing their efforts.  Actraiser proved immensely successful, though to be fair it was technically a launch title, and one of the few games available not named Super Mario World that was truly enjoyable and fantasy oriented without being painful (Drakken comes to mind as a "when WRPG's go horribly wrong" scenario).  After that it was hits and misses, with a few truly abysmal failures, and a lack of imagination to anticipate gamers or have any plans to reprint when a game is highly demanded (Ogre Battle, the only game that suddenly sold for a bundle soon after release, given no one knew about it until after they stopped printing, then EVERYONE and their mum wanted it, but nope, Enix wasn't printing, but then it was harder to find contact info back in the day).

Edited by ignasia7

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Fascinating.... so those sales figures accurately describe the serie's progress in the west? No wonder we didn't recieve V and VI then. May I add, that those figures, ironically, are the opposite of general fan and critical consent for the time. For instance: Nintendo Power. No other publication was so intune with the bulk of Nintendo's audience, and I'm sure we all remember their subscription bonus of the first dragon warrior. Curiously, the critical consensus was that each dragon warrior was bigger, and better than the last. They also ventured so far as to dedicate a rather large strategy section in a certain historical issue, to IV, I believe. Also considered, that Dragon Quest III was unabashedly popular in it's native country... so the question therein, I would assume, is: were the dragon warrior games marketed poorly in the west? Or was it considered to be an under achieving series by enix from the get-go? They had acclaim, and a fan base, and they'd done so well in Japan, so was Enix only paranoid of the series failing all along? Granted, descending sales for each sequel would seem to affect the availability of the next, but would any other companies during this time react so feverishly to consume possible losses? It would seem to me that 'quality control' for videogames was still a rather new concept in the late 1980's, after the industry was recovering from earlier mistakes commited by companies such as Atari. But, not to long ago prior to dragon quest's era, they would often manufacture copies of games left and right. Mmm... then there was Nintendo, who, in 1988, claimed continuously that the Super Mario Bros. II supply had run out, and that they were selling copies faster than the companies which assembled the cartridges could supply vital pieces for construction. There are, to this day, many of such shortages for software as well as hardware, and some refuse to buy into the theory that the game companies themselves can do nothing to prevent such instances from occuring.... and... I've quite derailed my own train of thought. Would someone kindly retrieve the conductor? ^_^

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This list is rather accurate in showing the actual sales figures. 

 

http://dragon-quest.org/wiki/Worldwide_Dragon_Quest_Sales

 

There are disputes as to overall sales due to lack of information after certain points in the sale cycle where Enix, and later Square-Enix won't post because they've already hit the significant milestones and average sales have dropped off to a trickle.  What could be 3.893 million for Dragon Quest VII, I've also seen as 4.12m for Japan alone on other sites, and it is difficult to say if that 4.12m figure is based on an algorithm and continued sales over time past the point where Enix would have reported at the 3.893m marker (which is an official Enix number), or if it's based on actual sales numbers in Enix quarterly reports that have rarely been used because it's just in their financial report rather than put out in a media blitz to tout the sales.

 

I've also seen quotes of 3.8+m for Dragon Quest VIII as the final total for Japan, and Dragon Quest IX as quoted over 4.6m from other sources.  The problem is the same, are they algorithms, or actual sourced data from financial reports that SE did not feel a need to post to the media?

 

There's also the discrepency of the Dragon Quest VII numbers in the US.  Several reputable sources quoted the final sales of the games were 210k based on the total number of printed copies, which is what this list uses, as compared to what other sources use as 170k, which was the last official post to the media by Enix a week after the release of the game.  Meaning there were 40k copies left in circulation, and of course eventually those sold, but some sites will only use the 170k because it is the only official press release (it's also the only number Magic Box still has as their US release numbers, despite having had a post at one point with 210+k, something like 217k, which I can't find via google cache, probably because it was pulled before someone had linked to it via google since the cache servers have been up).

 

Anyway, I'll go ahead and answer all your questions to the best of my ability, and I'm sure a few others could add or correct me on a few things...since there are some guys here with VERY solid knowledge about the details of everything that has gone down.

 

Fascinating.... so those sales figures accurately describe the serie's progress in the west?

 

As per above, yep.  500k (it was more, probably closer to 600k) total copies produced and sold or given away of Dragon Warrior.  Around 150k (I've seen real numbers around 170k and 140k, but I can't find the 170k anymore) for Dragon Warrior II, about 89k, which the Wiki says is 100k as the highest number I've ever seen quoted for Dragon Warrior III.  76k is the highest number I've seen for Dragon Warrior IV, which the wikia uses 80k as the standard accepted number since we had so little info to go with beyond Magic Box.  A few from RPGamer, but usually they quoted Magic Box, same with RPGFan.

 

May I add, that those figures, ironically, are the opposite of general fan and critical consent for the time. For instance: Nintendo Power. No other publication was so intune with the bulk of Nintendo's audience, and I'm sure we all remember their subscription bonus of the first dragon warrior. Curiously, the critical consensus was that each dragon warrior was bigger, and better than the last. They also ventured so far as to dedicate a rather large strategy section in a certain historical issue, to IV, I believe. Also considered, that Dragon Quest III was unabashedly popular in it's native country... so the question therein, I would assume, is: were the dragon warrior games marketed poorly in the west? Or was it considered to be an under achieving series by enix from the get-go?

 

You may, and they were, but recall there was always that disconnect we saw through the section near the end that displayed game popularity (hard to say if it was a list of votes for various games, or actual sales...I don't recall in what form they tallied that section), and just at the end there was a list of what types of games were most popular with Pros, Players, and Dealers, or something to that nature.  Pros always favoured Adventure and RPG, Dealers were almost strictly action, while Players were all over the board, usually Action, but also throwing in Adventure and Platformer, and on occasion, as in the time Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior were released, RPG's.

 

So there would be high praise for RPG's and Adventures, or games that mixed in RPG elements.  Dragon Warrior for sure saw very favourable reviews with each new iteration, but it's also the amount of attention.  I mean this is the US, we have had our commercial industry functioning as is or some time now.  We'd already grown up used to TV's being a common household item that every family or near enough would sit around.  We were used to commercialism, and many studies have shown constant drumming of information tends to be one of the most effective ways to sell an item.  The other being crafting a truly memorable and/or catchy commercial.

 

Anyway, most marketing for success was done through Magazines, and NP had, unlike any other point in history before or since, the greatest saturation amongst a player base of a console manufacturer.  I would say, at minimum 50% of all NES and SNES owners had a Nintendo Power subscription.   Heck, they came in the box, they were all over store shelves, your friends had them, and they usually gave you an insane number of those subscription cards, which I believe was designed for kids to give to kids, or parents to give to other parents.  NP was highly respected, and liked by parents, and Nintendo was family friendly.  So an easy sell.

 

Dragon Warrior, due to the giveaway, had a lot of articles covering it, including a special strategy guide.  I wonder if anyone has done a study on the number of magazines where Dragon Warrior's were noted, and in what fashion (page spreads, how it was mentioned, photos, whether they're reviews or previews, any advertisements, etc.).  I couldn't say for sure, but to my memory there was less exposure from Dragon Warrior II onward. 

 

I don't recall advertisements after Dragon Warrior, and that was to give away the game with new subscriptions.  There was also a lot of fan appeal with Dragon Warrior, and most people who mention the game remember it with that nostalgic joy and sorrow of an adult who remembers going on an adventure as a kid he or she can never experience again.

 

 

They had acclaim, and a fan base, and they'd done so well in Japan, so was Enix only paranoid of the series failing all along?

 

They did, but I couldn't say for sure.  One thing I do know is that simply because a product is released at one point, it's success is derived by continual reminders to shoppers that the new version of the product exists.  Few companies live on word of mouth and acclaim alone, especially if that service is few and far between when there are numerous competitors.  Most of those companies offer services rarely found, such as paramilitary, protection services like vehicle restructuring, personalized paint jobs, chop shops, tattoo parlors, restaurants (though some do advertise), etc.  Sure some have competition, but in the case of Tattoo's, they're expensive, and many take several trips, and if they like the artist, word gets around fast because there are plenty of terrible tattoo artists out there, and really exceptional ones are sought out.  Even without that, people get tats all the time...same deal with bars.

 

That said, even amongst those many industries, the ones who don't advertise and have plenty of competition are usually the ones most likely to go under.  I've seen tattoo parlors come and go, bars often come and go, restaurants, etc.

 

It's quite different when the product is of course, a pure want, and every new iteration takes a year or more to show up.  So that's a massive time gap where players have had no exposure to the name brand, or even to the game, so they'll be less likely to have an attachment or wanting to look for the next game, especially when no one has any clue when that next iteration would come, or even if one WOULD be made.

 

So, I see it as a matter of Enix's failure to understand the market at the time.  Afterall, videogames were a new product, and while RPG's tended to be few and far between, it's not the same as something a person would continuously use until the next product comes out.  Plus to garner new interest and new fans, how can they know to look for the game or if they'd want it until they're told or shown in a way that would spark interest?

 

So I don't believe they saw the series as failing.  I think they assumed the initial market distribution and the newness of videogames would automatically trigger sales and would require less input and marketing on their part.  This, especially given Japan's monumental success.  Though they DID advertise in Japan.  So possibly a misjudge on the US market?

 

 

Granted, descending sales for each sequel would seem to affect the availability of the next, but would any other companies during this time react so feverishly to consume possible losses? It would seem to me that 'quality control' for videogames was still a rather new concept in the late 1980's, after the industry was recovering from earlier mistakes commited by companies such as Atari. But, not to long ago prior to dragon quest's era, they would often manufacture copies of games left and right. Mmm... then there was Nintendo, who, in 1988, claimed continuously that the Super Mario Bros. II supply had run out, and that they were selling copies faster than the companies which assembled the cartridges could supply vital pieces for construction. There are, to this day, many of such shortages for software as well as hardware, and some refuse to buy into the theory that the game companies themselves can do nothing to prevent such instances from occuring.... and... I've quite derailed my own train of thought. Would someone kindly retrieve the conductor? ^_^

 

Perhaps there was a disconnect between the EoA at the time and EoJ.  Perhaps they hired people with little to no market experience.  Or perhaps they hired market managers with a lot of experience but were unable to obtain the funds from EoJ to market the games.  Afterall, DW only had such fantastic market penetration because Nintendo gave the thing away with NP after sales went nowhere, and there were at least 5 different NP's with such offers along with a ton of pushes for DW after the initial release, showing how awesome the game was.  I'm sure it didn't hurt that Final Fantasy saw it's media blitz in NP around the same time, likely because Nintendo saw the successful market penetration, albeit through free copies, of DW1 AFTER they pushed it, and so they started Final Fantasy's push long before the game's release, rather than after, as they had done with DW1.

 

I really don't know how Enix of Japan took all of this in, and what the dialogue was between both companies.  I just know that there was no push to sell DQ, and whether companies paid NP for reviews, and maybe a small spotlight, most of this was after the fact.  Your point about Dragon Warrior IV I believe was well after the game was already released, but I have all my NP's packed up, so I can't cross reference and check dates.

 

Given Nintendo's sales with Super Mario Bros. 2, the faux SMB2, and imo, the better version despite being a totally different game, is hard to pinpoint.  I've seen arguments saying that Nintendo dropped the ball on the game, didn't properly anticipate the market, and so undershot initial prints, and when it sold slowly at first, assumed it wouldn't sell, once it caught on they had already decided the game wasn't worth printing new copies.  I could argue that again, Videogames were very new, and combined with your point about Atari, there was clearly a fear of another overprint of a game no one wanted, and Nintendo was very strict in their controls, rarely changing their minds.  Afterall, it was technically a dictatorship (worked out pretty well for them though, until the n64 anyway, but wow did they mess up in not working with Sony).

 

You were still on point though, the SMB2 would be related in the sense of companies misjudging the US market, and not being willing to risk losses by printing new copies despite seeming fan demand.  It could even be as simple as, WE know there was fan demand, NP had plenty of fans writing in about certain games, and Pros were certainly keen on specific games that did not fair so well, but there was no system in place to assure Nintendo such fan sentiments were mainstream and would amount to real sales.  Even today most companies assume fan campaigns for a release will not result in actual sales.  There are a few exceptions, like Tales of Grace's which actually did sell well and prompted Xillia's push for the West from Namco.  There's also Xenoblade Chronicles, which had a very strong Western campaign for a release, and both the European and US releases sold more copies than the Japanese, and there's enough circumstantial evidence to suggest the US release not only outsold both Japan and Europe, but outsold both combined by a substantial margin despite no hard data, but just based on tracking patterns and initial sales, and realizing the algorithm would be way way way way way off the marker.  There's also the fact that the spiritual sequel to Xenoblade Chronicles has seen virtually every Japanese podcast brought to US shores for English podcasts.

 

Anyway, there's a lot of ifs/buts/maybes and little hard data I'm sorry to say :/.  I hope that answers your quandaries.

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Finally, we get to POINT EXTRA!  My favourite part.  I'll keep this brief as well.

You don't seem to understand what "brief" means. But your all your points here are vaild to the point that my sleep-deprived brain can understand.

 

LOL, I remember one time someone asked me if I could provide Cliff's Notes.  At another point someone asked me if there was a supplemental booklet to help break down the assorted word jargon and word puzzle I developed.

 

Oh ya, and happy birthday man.  Many happy returns, good cake, and one day when you're a bit older, a future full of good wine and women!

Edited by ignasia7

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Fabulously elaborated as always, Ignasia7. ^_^ Properly explaining something is always a chore, but you've certainly got a flare for it. You write for a living, I suspect? :D

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I'm trying to.  My goal is to become an author.  I have quite a few projects currently in the works.  Nothing published yet, but I have two that are relatively close to completion (9 total, one trilogy of which I've started on two of the books, a set of four books interconnected, two standalone novels, and the start of another trilogy).  I've had to postpone things a bit due to life changes, but just a temporary postponement.  Other than that I write videogame FAQs on the side, and while nothing is completed, I have three guides on GameFAQs right now.  Two for DQ6 DS, one for DQ3 GBC, an upcoming DQ4 DS, an upcoming DQ7 DS, and upcoming FF4 DS.

 

Anyway, my writing is more as a starting point for more ambitious projects on top of being something I've wanted to do for a long time.

 

What about yourself, what do you do?

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Hmm... well, at the age of 26, I'm not sure whether or not to call myself a budding cartoonist, or a failed one! :D Still, at any rate, I'm always trying to pursue my dream of creating a beloved manga universe for readers the world over. I wish to delight mankind with the characters that I have lovingly created, in an inspiring and delightful adventure. An videogame adaptation would be the pinnacle of my franchise. ;) So far, however, I've come up quite short.... but, the desire to create is deeply housed in my soul, so I'll never stop trying; actually though, I suppose my failure to do so up to this point is lack of development time. Life's always in such a rush, and I'm quite strapped for adequate intervals with which to work on my destiny, if you will. I was an AP level english student in highschool... hence, my elder sister always recommends I create a visual novel with a set amount of pictures, instead. I admit, I AM a better character designer than I am an actual dynamic artist... BUT I'd personally rather paint a world with pictures than with words: that's just more my style. SO. I'll sully forth, and never relinquish the spirit! Good luck to your ventures as well, Ignasia7! ^_^ Oh, and as an amusing afterthought; one of my dreams is to hold a character popularity poll fro my comuc book universe... a bit silly, yes; but I've always loved the idea. :3

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And I apologize for the many grammatical errors which thoroughly dot across my messages; you take an average typist, who types far too quickly, and ave' him type his messages on a 3ds browser touchscreen... that, dear boy, is how to maximize one's mistakes per minute! ^_^

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So after having played the game myself, I don't really get the problem.

 

My original impression from all the complaints was that you ONLY ever got the 8-9 abilities a class would learn while mastering it.

 

That's wrong.

 

All Beginner Class skills that I've gotten so far are kept regardless of what class you're on.  The end result is that you have a decent repository of spells and skills when you max all the Beginner Classes.  By Beginner Classes I mean the ones immediately available after reaching Dharma: Warrior, Fighter, Cleric, Magician, etc.

 

All the Advanced classes afterwards are unique in their own ways that results in you having basic abilities, and then the more advanced ones of that class.  It adds a better dynamic to the game.  Sure, you'll miss some abilities you got used to, and some of them would be nice to keep, but the majority of survival ones:  Healing, Intermediate Attacking spells like Firebane, Boom, etc. are all kept because they are learned from the Beginner classes.

 

I like the system.  I don't get the problem with it.  I'm not sure if the anger is from lack of understanding the system, or from hatred towards the fact that it was changed, but as I said earlier it was terrible and needed to be changed.  They did a good job, in my opinion.

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So after having played the game myself, I don't really get the problem.

 

My original impression from all the complaints was that you ONLY ever got the 8-9 abilities a class would learn while mastering it.

 

That's wrong.

 

All Beginner Class skills that I've gotten so far are kept regardless of what class you're on.  The end result is that you have a decent repository of spells and skills when you max all the Beginner Classes.  By Beginner Classes I mean the ones immediately available after reaching Dharma: Warrior, Fighter, Cleric, Magician, etc.

 

 

Good to know!  Sad we're not getting this game :cry:

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Well, isn't that lovely, Polantaris. ^_^ I am extremely happy for you, as are the 3 or so other people impressed by the changes. ;) Each to their own, says I!

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Well, let's just get something straight here, quest fans; regardless of our personal adoration or hatred of this modified class system, there's one thing we can all agree on: this was truly a topic with class!!! ;D

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LOL, you are certainly a source of immeasurable entertainment and a class act robotnik.

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