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Do you like the recent localizations of DQ?  

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You didn't catch my DQTranslations joke.

 

The reason why I'm an advocate for Plus Alpha is even though they've made decisions I haven't always agreed with, they're still the best team the series has had. At this point, anyone else that's come along has imitated them and the results haven't been as good.

 

And that's where we disagree. I think the translations for DWI-III on GBC, DWVII on PSX, DQVIII on PS2, DQM: Joker, DQM1-2 for GBC and DQVI on DS have all been better than the Plua Alpha ones. Heck, I'd even take the translations for DWI-IV on NES over theirs, or even a direct translation.

 

But this is just going back to things we've already talked about over and over. I'd rather a translation be as close to the original as possible. Not changed for the sake of change. And I'm still not convinced the majority of people think the Plus Alpha translations were an improvement on anything.

 

 

Wow, completely ruined? Sheesh, how easy it is to scorn translators now that there are plenty. Back when DeJap's translation was the ONLY one in existence for Phantasia, we treated it as it is, which is a slightly spiced up but otherwise perfectly fine translation. (And hey, they DIDN'T call it Kangaroo.) When it was a fantranslation or nothing, you took the fantranslation, even when they took a few liberties. It is not as though they drastically changed the plot or really anything but made for a few comedic scenes. Dunno where this huge hatred of DeJap's translation comes from.

 

You've already heard me express about how I dislike changes. And DeJap made a lot of changes for the sake of being 'funny'. Tales of Phantasia and the 'F**** like a tiger' aside, many of their translations are quite inacurate. Even I can tell with my limited understanding of Japanese. And quite often other people have come along who did a better translation than they did. I think its quite fair to compare them to other peoples works, even if they were the first to sub it. And I was there back 14-15 years ago when they were the only translation of certain games. That's why I played them.

 

I nean, their name is 'DeJap' and they actively stated on their forums at the time that they prided themsleves on 'improving on the origonal Japanese script'. They're basically boasting that they changed the source material to be 'better' than the original. And you know what, I'd rather not let a handful of people decide what is better or not for thousands of others. This is the same problem I have with Plus Alpha and many other localization teams. Just because they think changing a joke or name makes the product 'better', that doesn't mean everyone else does. Yet these few people decide what the rest of us can or cannot view, because its the only available option. This side of learning Japanese and importing the product.

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Plus Alpha did DQVIII.

 

It's strange that you should have such a huge problem with their style when you can't even tell which games they worked on.

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Plus Alpha did DQVIII.

 

It's strange that you should have such a huge problem with their style when you can't even tell which games they worked on.

 

I know they worked on DQVIII. However, Honeywood and others oversaw the production of DQVIII and did a lot of the writing themselves, whereas they didn't for DQIV, V and IX. And if you followed my argument, its quite consistent, as I've said multiple times that I felt DQVIII was a tollerable level of changes, but later spawned the overflow of accents and name changes you saw in DQIV and V. Do I have to put up the link to that website yet again? The team leader for Plus Alpha even admitted this with statements like 'we tried to find the sweet spot of how many alterations to make it just right', 'a good oppertunity to create a lot of good puns!' and 'we were trying to make voice acting through text', Among many other facepalm worthy statements. They completly admitted to changing tons of the game as if its a good thing.

 

Clearly Plus Alpha isn't the devil and have done okay works in the past. They also worked on the translation of Okami and many other games. But when it comes down to it, they have been taking several liberties with the Dragon Quest series and forcing a lot of cheesy accents/name changes. I've personally had enough, and think they should stop working on the Dragon Quest series at least. And I repeat the statement some others have said in this thread. If the same treatment had been done to a FInal Fantasy or other similar title, the anger of the fanbase would have gotten so bad they would have been forced to change their actions long ago. Yet because Dragon Quest is a secondary title at best in the west, people don't care about keeping the accuracy of the series intact. Let alone a product that can appeal to a wider audience.

 

But whatever. This is why I keep saying we should end this thread. I feel like I've made my point too many times and now people are trying to find reasons to defend Plus Alpha/changes, even if they don't totally agree with their actions. Don't be insulted or anything, I've done the same, trying to counter arguments when someone is over zelous about something. But this is just one topic, like Anime dubbing, where I just have a set viewpoint and will never change. And again, at the risk of insulting someone, I haven't had much reason to change my views in this thread other than people claiming Plus Alpha did a good job over and over, but not explaining why. While I've taken the brunt of the heat from others because I have put up dozens of examples why I don't like the changes they made.

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Plus Alpha did DQVIII.

 

It's strange that you should have such a huge problem with their style when you can't even tell which games they worked on.

 

I know they worked on DQVIII. However, Honeywood and others oversaw the production of DQVIII and did a lot of the writing themselves, whereas they didn't for DQIV, V and IX. And if you followed my argument, its quite consistent, as I've said multiple times that I felt DQVIII was a tollerable level of changes, but later spawned the overflow of accents and name changes you saw in DQIV and V. Do I have to put up the link to that website yet again? The team leader for Plus Alpha even admitted this with statements like 'we tried to find the sweet spot of how many alterations to make it just right', 'a good oppertunity to create a lot of good puns!' and 'we were trying to make voice acting through text', Among many other facepalm worthy statements. They completly admitted to changing tons of the game as if its a good thing.

 

Clearly Plus Alpha isn't the devil and have done okay works in the past. They also worked on the translation of Okami and many other games. But when it comes down to it, they have been taking several liberties with the Dragon Quest series and forcing a lot of cheesy accents/name changes. I've personally had enough, and think they should stop working on the Dragon Quest series at least. And I repeat the statement some others have said in this thread. If the same treatment had been done to a FInal Fantasy or other similar title, the anger of the fanbase would have gotten so bad they would have been forced to change their actions long ago. Yet because Dragon Quest is a secondary title at best in the west, people don't care about keeping the accuracy of the series intact. Let alone a product that can appeal to a wider audience.

 

But whatever. This is why I keep saying we should end this thread. I feel like I've made my point too many times and now people are trying to find reasons to defend Plus Alpha/changes, even if they don't totally agree with their actions. Don't be insulted or anything, I've done the same, trying to counter arguments when someone is over zelous about something. But this is just one topic, like Anime dubbing, where I just have a set viewpoint and will never change. And again, at the risk of insulting someone, I haven't had much reason to change my views in this thread other than people claiming Plus Alpha did a good job over and over, but not explaining why. While I've taken the brunt of the heat from others because I have put up dozens of examples why I don't like the changes they made.

 

Well it all comes to opinions. When a person's opinion is different they have a tendency to try and defend it. Which is fine...as long as you dont push your opinion down peoples throats. :butbut:

 

As for your comment...I wouldnt want to just throw Plus Alpha out entirely. HOWEVER.....They really need to look at what translation groups like RPGOne and DQTranslations have done. They have received nothing but praise for their work. Learn from it. :P

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As for your comment...I wouldnt want to just throw Plus Alpha out entirely. HOWEVER.....They really need to look at what translation groups like RPGOne and DQTranslations have done. They have received nothing but praise for their work. Learn from it. :P

 

I agree. If they could do that, I'd have no problem with them. But its kind of like subtitles for Anime. Many times translators get bogged down by multiple different things. Higher ups have random 'ideas' and force them to impliment it into the translation (like changing names or adding accents), they try to make the product appeal to a certain audience (IE: Kids or 'Mature' players) or frankly, just the life experience of the translators themselves (their personal views and experiences with other cultures or lack thereof). That's what I was trying to hit upon a few posts above. The person or few people doing the translation may honestly think all the accents and changes make the product better. But that person or small group of people are now altering a product to only be what they 'think' is good. And say 300,000 people bought DQV between America and Europe. Now that small grup of 1-5 people is responsible for producing a product that 300,000 people will be seeing.

 

And sadly, a lot of the times the 'official' localization team is quite aware of other translations made by fans. But its like a pride thing...they consider themselves the 'official' team and they should be able to improve on the work of some 'unpaid group of fans'. This happens in the world of Anime dubbing all the time. These companies actively look to the sub community for what's 'hot', then go out and buy the rights to those shows. But then they claim fansubs are bad and expect the Anime community to buy their DVDs. And they actively change names and the script to make their product appeal to different groups. Sometimes it really feels like these 'official' localization teams are changing so much just to be different from fan translations that came before. And that's not a good reason to change things.

 

Likewise, Plus Alpha has made comments aknowledging that DQV and VI had a fanbase even before the games officially came to the west. This is why I'm even more confused that they decided to change so much of the games. if the 'fanbase' has been used to names like Papas and Flora and Ludman...why change them so drastically? I would have been fine if Papas was changed only slightly (maybe something like Pape, which actually means father). Or Flora became 'Florence'...I can understand these. But 'Ludman' becomes Rodrigo Briscoletti and starts spouting a bunch of Italian stereotypes? Might as well put him in a set of red overalls and have him smashing koopas. Its such a big change, he is no longer the same character. And THAT is my point.

 

If nothing else, I just want people to understand that ALL I'm advocating for is a product that is closer to the original and aimed at all audiences. Even if that means more of a direct or 'dry' translation. Final Fantasy and Pokemon have all been able to do this, and aside from having name changes and the occasional pun, have remained pretty close to the source material. At least a lot closer than Dragon Quest has. I just want to see the translations for DQ toned down to that level. Clearly the 'toned down' translations for FF and Pokemon haven't hurt the sales. In fact, sales seem to go down whenever Final Fantasy adds things like accents and tons of changes. See the fan outcry towards FFVI Advance or FFXII for example. A simple removal of 'son of a submariner' and the fans are reaching for their pitchforks.

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Really, you wouldn't be complaining about "Florence"? Is it implying that she's some sort of nurse? Let's face it, you want names to remain completely faithful. I get that. But I really doubt you'd have been okay with some of the changes you say you'd be okay with.

 

And I really don't know what you're on with Pokemon translations. Gen 2-4 had a translator who was a member of Something Awful inserting SA-references. (My house has no stairs, my Pokemon are fight, etc.) And they've always been pretty big on names changes to Pokemon. Furthermore, Gen 5 changed the name of the region as well as the Professor, which was something that they hadn't ever done in a previous generation game. So...yeah, they're changing more than ever nowadays.

 

...and your last sentence completely contradicts your "more faithful to the original" claim, as "son of a submariner" was a complete Woolsey-ism, and had its own share of loud complainers back in the day. Are you suggesting that it's okay that the script is "completely butchered" in its first translation, but woe be to he that tries to do a "more accurate" secondary translation? I have to hand it to Kajiya for even trying with FFT PSP or Tactics Ogre PSP then.

 

Once again, you're tying "accents" with "decreased sales" as though that is the major contributor. As I've implied before in this topic, correlation is not causation, and you really need to stop treating it as such. You made your point. I happen to disagree with you and think you're starting to grasp for reasons supporting your claim.

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Gen 2-4 had a translator who was a member of Something Awful inserting SA-references.

 

Yep, that would be N0b who goes by Doug Dinsdale on SA. N0b was the first mod of the Enix forums as well as being responsible for DW I+II, DW III, DWM 2, and Torneko: The Last Hope. He's dropped a number of sexy stories about working for Enix. Not many come across as positive, though. For the time and space constraints, he did great work.

 

And Dwaine: The answer apparently is Dancing with the Stars. I thought she had disappeared off of television after Relic Hunter.

 

Current season of Celebrity Apprentice, too! Actually pretty enjoyable so far with Dee Snider, George Takei, Adam Carolla, and Penn.

 

They really need to look at what translation groups like RPGOne and DQTranslations have done.

 

Haha, no they do not! They're doing fine and are much better writers than me! Although, their PS2 and DS hacking skills compared to Damars and Tom have yet to be seen. Your move, Plus Alpha!

 

if the 'fanbase' has been used to names like Papas and Flora and Ludman...why change them so drastically?

 

Papas and Martha are creative ways to say 'papa' and 'mother' in Japanese. Katakana spells by sound, and while it's a foreign word, they don't hear or speak it like we do. While Papas sounds fun, it edges on Engrish. I agree that Flora should've remained since her name fits her character. With the meaning behind Bianca, they decided to make it a white/black subtext. My personal opinion aside, a lot of thought went into it and it's clever wordplay. Ludman is another case of Horii picking a name because it sounds neat. ルドマン spelled out is ru-do-ma-n. It's usually romanized as "Rudeman." Ludman is a less Engrish translation, but the name still sticks out and doesn't fit his personality at all.

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N0b did indeed do great work. Wonder what he's moved onto nowadays.

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Not sure. He's probably mentioned it on SA, but I rarely go there.

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...and your last sentence completely contradicts your "more faithful to the original" claim, as "son of a submariner" was a complete Woolsey-ism, and had its own share of loud complainers back in the day. Are you suggesting that it's okay that the script is "completely butchered" in its first translation, but woe be to he that tries to do a "more accurate" secondary translation? I have to hand it to Kajiya for even trying with FFT PSP or Tactics Ogre PSP then.

 

No, I was using that as an example of how one small change can rile up a fanbase. I never said I thought the original change was good. Though I DID say multiple times that the FF translations were a lot better and toned down compared to the DQ translations. I ALSO said that if a DQ game had a translation similar to FFVI, which has less major changes aside from names and a few lines, it would be acceptable.

 

This all relies heavily on you understanding the rest of my points however.

 

Once again, you're tying "accents" with "decreased sales" as though that is the major contributor. As I've implied before in this topic, correlation is not causation, and you really need to stop treating it as such. You made your point. I happen to disagree with you and think you're starting to grasp for reasons supporting your claim.

 

First off, I wasn't doing such a thing. But second of all, why are you harping on me for using 'correlation' and yet the constant comments about how 'Plus Alpha is doing well' without any examples go unnoticed? Again, I'm really starting to feel that people are arguing against me simply because I'm the loudest voice in the thread. And just because I got one thing wrong (thinking Plus Alpha didn't do DQIX), suddenly everything in my argument is being treated like its wrong.

 

All this aside, I now ask you in reply. Do you even have a solid reason why Plus Alpha did good with such games as DQIV and V? Can you tell me how their translations helped the series? Because that's the kind of response I'm not getting. All I'm getting it nit-picking about my views. And no counter views from others.

 

If I'm basing my argument on 'coorelations', its only because others aren't providing any counter examples to prove me wrong. Just using examples of my own posts to claim I was saying something I wasn't and claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. If you really feel like I don't, then EXPLAIN why. And no, 'because Plus Alpha is the best so far' is not a significant reply. Come on, I've given you pages worth of examples, the least you can do is provide some yourself. Also, I hate to be picky, but I'm getting frsutrated myself because you seem to keep overlooking my key points. Did you not even see my whole example of how Ludman became Rodrigo Bruscolitti (sp) and had tons of stereotypical things added to him? What about my many examples of saying how I can accept some changes, as long as its toned down and doesn't impact the story? I don't think I'm being out of line here, but I'm being treated like I am. And for reasons I cannot understand as you don't address these issues, only come up with reasons to be angry at other things I said. Again, I don't want to imply anything, but at this point it just seems like you're defending Plus Alpha simply because I'm portraying them so negatively. I honestly would like to know why they deserve your support.

 

And I really don't know what you're on with Pokemon translations. Gen 2-4 had a translator who was a member of Something Awful inserting SA-references. (My house has no stairs, my Pokemon are fight, etc.) And they've always been pretty big on names changes to Pokemon. Furthermore, Gen 5 changed the name of the region as well as the Professor, which was something that they hadn't ever done in a previous generation game. So...yeah, they're changing more than ever nowadays.

 

And apparently you went from making him seem bad because he's affiliated with Something Awful to saying he did excellent work. So I don't know what you're on about either.... No, I don't personally know the guy who did the translations like you seem to. All I know is I prefer the translations for DQI-III, Monsters and Torneko over Plus Alphas.

 

Also, my point with Pokemon was that the actual dialogue has some changes, but they're much more toned down than DQ. They don't have dozens of apostrohpies, purposefully misspelled words, crap like 'love a duck' and 'ello govnr', etc. And I even said in a previous post about how the Pokemon have name changes. But many of the Japanese names for Pokemon wouldn't work when translated for America/Europe. Whereas names like Barbera or Flora obviously could, yet they were changed in the western release....

 

Also, I believe Pokemon Gen 3, 4 and 5 all have different professors as well as regions. Namely the Hoenn, Sinnoh and Unove regions. Only Pokemon 1 and 2 (red/blue and silver/gold) took place in the same Kanto region. And even then, you start off in a different region with Gen 2 (Johto). And if memory serves me, Professor Oak makes an apperance in both 3rd and 4th gen to hand you the world dex. I donno about Black/White as I kind of stopped playing Pokemon with Platinum.

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First off, I wasn't doing such a thing.

 

"The sales and reputation of DQ in America sure doesn't seem to be improving. So even with the general public, I say the accents are failing."

 

"The only major bump in sales we've seen for the series has been DQVIII and IX, both which had marketing. Its marketing which improves sales, not accents."

 

"While you think the accents aren't hurting the series, I don't see them helping the series either. DQ Jokerm Swords, IV and V saw a pretty stable decrease in sales for each title, capping out at around 150,000 for DQV (the lowest selling DQ game in America). If we are to assume in America DQ has about 150,000 'stable' fans who will buy any game, then what can be done to improve that number? In my view, the accents didn't increase sales as the only game to increase sales of the series was DQIX, which saw a 400% increase in sales over DQV DS. And that can be attributed to heavy marketing by Nintendo and hype from word of mouth, not anything to do with the accents."

 

"I even backed off and said its probably not logical to think the accents are hurting sales. But again, I don't see them helping sales either."

 

You've stated that marketing boosts sales. Right, I agree with this. And then you turn around and postulate the idea that "accents aren't improving sales" as though it makes any sense. More often than not, accents are going to only be an issue for people who have already bought the game, which decouples them from sales. Accents aren't going to be boosting sales by any sizeable number, but they're not going to be hurting sales significantly either. (Short of negative reviews from other players complaining about the localization, but that's "advertising" in the form of reviews.) So while I appreciate that you're acknowledging that accents aren't hurting sales, you seem to KEEP COMING BACK TO THE ACCENTS. You have demonstrated your dislike of them, and I have acknowledged this several times. However, as I keep restating, you are putting far too much emphasis on the localization as the reason for poor sales of the DQ series when you have already admitted that marketing is a far more prominent issue. Then you turn around and grab two other far more popular RPG series (with completely separate reasons for their successes than the localizations) and try to demonstrate that they are truer to the source material and have less of a localization, and thus are more successful. You then go on to throw out the notion that sales took a hit when FFXII added "accents" of all things, which completely disregards the fact that it wasn't X, isn't X, will never be X, and a huge amount of the X fandom wanted another X. (Also, the battle system was completely different, the "lead" was a vehicle rather than the center focus, and the plot was political. Which are all ways of saying "it wasn't X")

 

But second of all, why are you harping on me for using 'correlation' and yet the constant comments about how 'Plus Alpha is doing well' without any examples go unnoticed? Again, I'm really starting to feel that people are arguing against me simply because I'm the loudest voice in the thread. And just because I got one thing wrong (thinking Plus Alpha didn't do DQIX), suddenly everything in my argument is being treated like its wrong.

 

I've been arguing with you BEFORE you made that error. I am harping on you, because your opinion that these goofier localizations have been harming the series has been noted, and no matter how much you rant about it, they're probably here to stay. Do I agree that Plus Alpha's translation is great? Sure. It's a spirited localization with some heart and some flavor. Does it make the game better always? Absolutely not. Are there instances where I feel the accents are overboard? Sure, did you not see me agreeing that they were a problem in DQIV? Are you entiteld to want a more literal translation? Yes. Is it reasonable to complain and expect a localization company to release TWO SCRIPTS so that the MINORITY who is complaining about how much is changed is appeased? No, not really. The option for the die-hard purists has always been to learn the original lanuage and play it such that you get as pure a script as possible. (Because, after all, the only changes in translation are now being done by you.) For everyone else, we honestly have to take what we can get. Or alternatively, get REALLY good at writing English as well as translating the original language, get a job as a translator, work REALLY hard building connections and amassing a resume, and get a job translating the game series that you feel other translators are butchering.

 

All this aside, I now ask you in reply. Do you even have a solid reason why Plus Alpha did good with such games as DQIV and V? Can you tell me how their translations helped the series? Because that's the kind of response I'm not getting. All I'm getting it nit-picking about my views. And no counter views from others.

 

Do I have a solid reason why they did well? What qualifies as a solid reason? The only reason that one can reasonably give is that their translations helped the series because a new generation of players were able to experience the games legally, and it was the first time DQV was even playable in the west. Can I play a what-if game pertaining to the way they chose to localize the game? Sure, but why bother? The sales were poor for DQIV and V given a lack of marketing, the sales of DQIX were amazing due to tremendous marketing, and the sales for DQVI were mediocre due minimal marketing. The fact that we went from Plus-Alpha to 8-4 really didn't change the direction of the translation or the sales strength of the series. (Also, "Peggy Sue" for the horse? Is this not terribly punny enough?)

 

If I'm basing my argument on 'coorelations', its only because others aren't providing any counter examples to prove me wrong. Just using examples of my own posts to claim I was saying something I wasn't and claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. If you really feel like I don't, then EXPLAIN why. And no, 'because Plus Alpha is the best so far' is not a significant reply. Come on, I've given you pages worth of examples, the least you can do is provide some yourself. Also, I hate to be picky, but I'm getting frsutrated myself because you seem to keep overlooking my key points. Did you not even see my whole example of how Ludman became Rodrigo Bruscolitti (sp) and had tons of stereotypical things added to him? What about my many examples of saying how I can accept some changes, as long as its toned down and doesn't impact the story? I don't think I'm being out of line here, but I'm being treated like I am. And for reasons I cannot understand as you don't address these issues, only come up with reasons to be angry at other things I said. Again, I don't want to imply anything, but at this point it just seems like you're defending Plus Alpha simply because I'm portraying them so negatively. I honestly would like to know why they deserve your support.

 

Give you examples to prove WHAT wrong? Your opinions? You have given multiple examples of individual changes that bother you. The reason why I generally have refrained from addressing them is that they are your opinions, and you are entitled to them. I cannot "prove" them wrong, because how you feel really has nothing to do with me. You are entiteld to dislike the change from Ludman being a haughty, wealthy man to an over-the-top wealthy Italian. However, in my opinion, changing Ludman to the Italian Rodrigo Briscoletti is a minor change all things considered. I feel that it did not impact the story, it did not change the character relationships between your hero and his daughters, and it did not do much of anything in particular except make him a more pronounced character. Is this a good change? I could take it or leave it. You clearly despise it. That is fine, you have that right.

 

Additionally, I am less defending Plus Alpha and more defending localizations, as I feel that if anything, they are always preferable to a literal translation.

 

And apparently you went from making him seem bad because he's affiliated with Something Awful to saying he did excellent work. So I don't know what you're on about either.... No, I don't personally know the guy who did the translations like you seem to. All I know is I prefer the translations for DQI-III, Monsters and Torneko over Plus Alphas.

 

You misunderstand entirely. My point is that he threw in completely random phrases for some characters as an in-joke to a community he was part of. This is completely contradictory to the spirit of "literal translation" that you seem to be so in favor of.

 

Also, I believe Pokemon Gen 3, 4 and 5 all have different professors as well as regions. Namely the Hoenn, Sinnoh and Unove regions. Only Pokemon 1 and 2 (red/blue and silver/gold) took place in the same Kanto region. And even then, you start off in a different region with Gen 2 (Johto). And if memory serves me, Professor Oak makes an apperance in both 3rd and 4th gen to hand you the world dex. I donno about Black/White as I kind of stopped playing Pokemon with Platinum.

 

You have no idea what I'm saying here, and I feel it chiefly stems from you not playing Black and White. To explain, in Gen1-4, the Japanese name of the region was KEPT, and the English version used the same name. Additionally, the Professors in the English games followed a theme of spreading-leafed trees. Gen 5 changed the name of the region from Isshu to Unova, and the Professor went from Araragi (which is a Yew, and those DO have spreading leaves) to Juniper, which is an evergreen. So after discarding to themes that they maintained through four generations, the localization team (who is a different and new team) decided to do things their own way. This is the same sort of complaint you've been railing against Plus Alpha's translation choices, but then you used Pokemon as an example of a "perfectly fine more literal translation", which really isn't the case in the most recent generation. And thus my complaint was that you were using a bad example to once again reinforce your claim that "literal translations don't hurt sales."

 

(And when it comes down to it, you can't prove that any more than you can prove that accents do hurt sales. There's no good way to approximate this information.)

 

You seem to be operating under the assumption that everyone shares an opinion that dissents from your own. This simply isn't the case. Dwaine has a higher opinion of Plus Alpha's translation decisions than I do, but I still respect what they've done. I mean, if this sort of thing is going to bother you so much, you can just stick with the fantranslations of IV, V, and VI. They're not going anywhere.

 

But the official translations? Those are in the publisher's hands, and they're going to be however they are.

 

Additionally, bringing in anime dubbing to support your argument annoys me because it's a different issue entirely. Different media, different market, and different consumers. Oh, and I DO own Princess Tutu and Utawarerumono. (Both from ADV, in fact.) Doesn't change the fact that THIS maket is not only flooded, but is shrinking. But that's a discussion for a different thread.

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You've stated that marketing boosts sales. Right, I agree with this. And then you turn around and postulate the idea that "accents aren't improving sales" as though it makes any sense. More often than not, accents are going to only be an issue for people who have already bought the game, which decouples them from sales. Accents aren't going to be boosting sales by any sizeable number, but they're not going to be hurting sales significantly either. (Short of negative reviews from other players complaining about the localization, but that's "advertising" in the form of reviews.) So while I appreciate that you're acknowledging that accents aren't hurting sales, you seem to KEEP COMING BACK TO THE ACCENTS. You have demonstrated your dislike of them, and I have acknowledged this several times. However, as I keep restating, you are putting far too much emphasis on the localization as the reason for poor sales of the DQ series when you have already admitted that marketing is a far more prominent issue. Then you turn around and grab two other far more popular RPG series (with completely separate reasons for their successes than the localizations) and try to demonstrate that they are truer to the source material and have less of a localization, and thus are more successful. You then go on to throw out the notion that sales took a hit when FFXII added "accents" of all things, which completely disregards the fact that it wasn't X, isn't X, will never be X, and a huge amount of the X fandom wanted another X. (Also, the battle system was completely different, the "lead" was a vehicle rather than the center focus, and the plot was political. Which are all ways of saying "it wasn't X")

 

Once again, I think you are taking thinmgs FAR out of context. Do I think the accents and stuff could have hurt sales? Possibly, but I aknowledge that there is no proof of such a thing. But at the same time, I never intended to claim this as a fact, which you seem to be claiming I did. My views were ALWAYS speculation, and used to try to get you thinking that perhaps the changes weren't a benefit to the series. All my examples of showing how the series went down in sales and all that was just speculation. I seriously thought we were done with this topic . Especially since I admitted twice that it wasn't a fact by saying things like "While you think the accents aren't hurting the series, I don't see them helping the series either." as well as "I even backed off and said its probably not logical to think the accents are hurting sales. But again, I don't see them helping sales either." But let's just chalk that up to miscommunication.

 

Also, as an aside, I don't think that FFXII lost sales because 'accents'. I was using that as a sort of 'control' argument to once again say 'The accents didn't help this series, so why should they help DQ?'. Admittedly, not the best argument. In actuality, I know precisely why FFXII sold less. Look at the sales of all the major FF games since FFVII. The first game released on a platform (FFVII/FFX/FFXIII) gets the bulk of the hype, advertising and etc. The second title (in this case FFVIII/FFX-2/FFXIII-2) gets marginal hype and marginal advertising compared to the first, and sells less as a result (though FFVIII sold pretty darn well). The last games on their respective platform (FFIX/FFXII/I assume FFVersus) have the least amount of hype and even less advertising. Its a simple curve of sales, based on hype and advertising.

 

I've been arguing with you BEFORE you made that error. I am harping on you, because your opinion that these goofier localizations have been harming the series has been noted, and no matter how much you rant about it, they're probably here to stay. Do I agree that Plus Alpha's translation is great? Sure. It's a spirited localization with some heart and some flavor. Does it make the game better always? Absolutely not. Are there instances where I feel the accents are overboard? Sure, did you not see me agreeing that they were a problem in DQIV? Are you entiteld to want a more literal translation? Yes. Is it reasonable to complain and expect a localization company to release TWO SCRIPTS so that the MINORITY who is complaining about how much is changed is appeased? No, not really. The option for the die-hard purists has always been to learn the original lanuage and play it such that you get as pure a script as possible. (Because, after all, the only changes in translation are now being done by you.) For everyone else, we honestly have to take what we can get. Or alternatively, get REALLY good at writing English as well as translating the original language, get a job as a translator, work REALLY hard building connections and amassing a resume, and get a job translating the game series that you feel other translators are butchering.

 

Well I can make a similar counter argument saying we don't know how many people liked or disliked the translations. And we can also speculate that the 'majority' of people don't mind the accents, but again that all goes back to my view that they don't know what they changes are in the first place. And that doesn't really wash the hands of the localization team. Ignorance is only an excuse for the ignorant. Neither of us are on this topic. But whatever, I say we just drop this topic because its definitely based on opinion. And I aknowledge that I am pretty set on my opinion and it won't change, which I did say in a previous post.

 

Do I have a solid reason why they did well? What qualifies as a solid reason? The only reason that one can reasonably give is that their translations helped the series because a new generation of players were able to experience the games legally, and it was the first time DQV was even playable in the west. Can I play a what-if game pertaining to the way they chose to localize the game? Sure, but why bother? The sales were poor for DQIV and V given a lack of marketing, the sales of DQIX were amazing due to tremendous marketing, and the sales for DQVI were mediocre due minimal marketing. The fact that we went from Plus-Alpha to 8-4 really didn't change the direction of the translation or the sales strength of the series. (Also, "Peggy Sue" for the horse? Is this not terribly punny enough?)

 

Well, here's one place we kind of agree. I've been saying (for years really) that the lack of marketing is the biggest factor for the games not selling well. I mean, we can at least agree to that. But again, you kind of came to the same conclusion I did about the translation. They probably didn't do much for or against the sales of the games. The only thing I would like to add to that topic is we MIGHT have seen a significant hit in sales of each game was marketed well. I know its just my own experience, but I really fo know people who didn't buy DQIX or VI because they didn't like the translation for DQIV and V. And I'm not talking about myself, since I bought all of them. Even if it was only a select few people, for those people the translation was bad enough they didn't buy the game. And I'm just trying to say, having a somewhat toned down translation would have probably sufficed to get those few extra sales back, and takes the same if not less effort for the localization group.

 

But again, that part is based on opinion and we don't need to kick that dead horse anymore (yes, that was meant as a pun).

 

Additionally, I am less defending Plus Alpha and more defending localizations, as I feel that if anything, they are always preferable to a literal translation.

 

Well the whole part with Ludman we're just going to disagree on. I view it as a major character change and for that I dislike it. Since you seem to be indifferent to it, there's not much we can discuss.

 

As for the direct translation aspect, I feel you have taken the wrong view of my position. Multiple times I've said I'd rather have a toned down translation, not a straight literal translation. I even said I could tollerate accents and name changes, as long as its in a lesser amount like in games such as say Chrono Cross or Zelda. I will fully admit saying once that I would rather take a direct translation over what Plus Alpha did, but that was from the context of me saying 'I'd take anything over Plus Alpha at this point'. My overall view is that small changes and additions are tollerable and even needed when changing scripts from one language to another. But I feel what Plus Alpha did was some of the biggest changes and liberties taken with a translation since the NES/PS1 days. And even goes far beyond making Samus/Sypha Belnades into a man or other such errors. Mostly because such changes in the DQ games were concious and deliberate decisions and many of the changes on NES games were mistakes.

 

You misunderstand entirely. My point is that he threw in completely random phrases for some characters as an in-joke to a community he was part of. This is completely contradictory to the spirit of "literal translation" that you seem to be so in favor of.

 

Can't really comment on him making in jokes because its been years since I played them. But how is that worse than Plus Alpha completely changing the dialogue and actions of the Zenithian Dragon just so he could sound like Ned Flanders? See, you're kind of pointing out something you think is an extreme, whereas I have plenty I can make about the Plus Alpha translations as well. I guess we've just hit another impass based on opinion.

 

You have no idea what I'm saying here, and I feel it chiefly stems from you not playing Black and White. To explain, in Gen1-4, the Japanese name of the region was KEPT, and the English version used the same name. Additionally, the Professors in the English games followed a theme of spreading-leafed trees. Gen 5 changed the name of the region from Isshu to Unova, and the Professor went from Araragi (which is a Yew, and those DO have spreading leaves) to Juniper, which is an evergreen. So after discarding to themes that they maintained through four generations, the localization team (who is a different and new team) decided to do things their own way. This is the same sort of complaint you've been railing against Plus Alpha's translation choices, but then you used Pokemon as an example of a "perfectly fine more literal translation", which really isn't the case in the most recent generation. And thus my complaint was that you were using a bad example to once again reinforce your claim that "literal translations don't hurt sales."

 

Well again, I don't want a literal translation. But also again, you seem to have a problem with just ONE name change in a Pokemon game. And I would argue many of the name changes in Dragon Quest (Ashlynn, Cleohatra, Rodrigo, etc) were much more impacting to their characters. To the point of making them into entirely different characters. So.....I don't know what to tell you. Of course I don't like the idea that they changed the spirit of how they name Pokemon characters. But on the flip side, I don't see why you're using that as an example when you think changing Ludman to Rodrigo Briscoletti isn't that big of a change. The changes in the DQ games seem a lot bigger of a change to me.

 

Also, at the risk of confusing this discussion even further, I do want to point out that the translations for DQI-III on GBC, Monsters 1-2 and others that you said that one guy worked on are generally thought of as being good translations and some of the more popular Dragon Warrior releases in America. I don't see how DQIV, V, Swords or Joker would have been any worse for sticking with a translation such as that. But that's just me.

 

You seem to be operating under the assumption that everyone shares an opinion that dissents from your own. This simply isn't the case. Dwaine has a higher opinion of Plus Alpha's translation decisions than I do, but I still respect what they've done. I mean, if this sort of thing is going to bother you so much, you can just stick with the fantranslations of IV, V, and VI. They're not going anywhere.

 

I probably would if the DS games had a complete fan translation. Last time I checked, they didn't. Only the original NES/SNES versions. If someone has heard of a complete translation, please do let me know.

 

But the official translations? Those are in the publisher's hands, and they're going to be however they are.

 

I know this. Why do you think I'm so vocal about this? I also sent letters to SE of America about this. I talked about it on the SE forums. Trust me, I'm not just some guy complaining on the internet. I've actively voiced my opinion to SE themselves. All things considered, I'm trying in any form I can to influence the main localization teams. I don't just argue about this online for fun. its draining and takes lots of time. But apparently the guys at SE of America have taken notice of this board so in the very slim change they read this thread, hopefully my viewpoint will be noted. If I had some kind of connections, I'd work directly with the localization team itself, or at least give them some suggestions. And before you claim I'm super concieted for suggesting this, I've been a huge supporter of the series for years and gotten dozens of people online, friends and otherwise, interested in the series. Nothing would make me happier if I could improve both the sales and hype sorrounding the series. That's why I also feel so strongly about its translation, because even if Nintendo starts marketing DQ up the wazoo, people still need to play the games. And I don't want all the years of effort and marketing to blow up in SE/Nintendo's face because someone makes an internet meme about some funny name change or starts calling DQ 'that series full of hicks and monsters' (yes, I've actually seen someone say this).

 

DQ already has a major negative reputation for being cliche and grinding as it is. I'm just trying to find all ways to improve its image. But there's not much I can do when someone comes to me and says 'Yeah I tried a DQ game once. I stopped because that pink armor dude sounded stupid'.

 

For the record, I don't believe DQ is cliche or grinding. But far too many other people do.

 

Additionally, bringing in anime dubbing to support your argument annoys me because it's a different issue entirely. Different media, different market, and different consumers. Oh, and I DO own Princess Tutu and Utawarerumono. (Both from ADV, in fact.) Doesn't change the fact that THIS maket is not only flooded, but is shrinking. But that's a discussion for a different thread.

 

Quite. And from the sound of it, you kind of share some of my opinions on the subtitle market. But I agree, let's not go into it here. I still stand by my view of how 'official' localization groups look down on fansubbers (for both Anime and Video games), yet use them as a measuring stick for poulairty and what to bring over to the west. You can at least agree to that, right?

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But on the flip side, I don't see why you're using that as an example when you think changing Ludman to Rodrigo Briscoletti isn't that big of a change. The changes in the DQ games seem a lot bigger of a change to me.

 

Because I feel it's an equivalent change to the Ludman to Rodrigo change. They both don't do too much to add or detract from the game, but to the right people, they can be really annoying. (Again, why I feel pulling Pokemon into this conversation was unnecessary.)

 

Also, at the risk of confusing this discussion even further, I do want to point out that the translations for DQI-III on GBC, Monsters 1-2 and others that you said that one guy worked on are generally thought of as being good translations and some of the more popular Dragon Warrior releases in America. I don't see how DQIV, V, Swords or Joker would have been any worse for sticking with a translation such as that. But that's just me.

 

Last one of the GBC/Playstation generation games was 2001. Given how limited sales were, I don't blame them for trying something new with DQ8 four years later in 2005. Reclaim the Dragon Quest name, do a fresh start on the series, and so on. Seemed to work with 8, after all.

 

I probably would if the DS games had a complete fan translation. Last time I checked, they didn't. Only the original NES/SNES versions. If someone has heard of a complete translation, please do let me know.

 

Seems to be the point of this thread, really.

 

I know this. Why do you think I'm so vocal about this? I also sent letters to SE of America about this. I talked about it on the SE forums. Trust me, I'm not just some guy complaining on the internet. I've actively voiced my opinion to SE themselves. All things considered, I'm trying in any form I can to influence the main localization teams. I don't just argue about this online for fun. its draining and takes lots of time. But apparently the guys at SE of America have taken notice of this board so in the very slim change they read this thread, hopefully my viewpoint will be noted. If I had some kind of connections, I'd work directly with the localization team itself, or at least give them some suggestions. And before you claim I'm super concieted for suggesting this, I've been a huge supporter of the series for years and gotten dozens of people online, friends and otherwise, interested in the series. Nothing would make me happier if I could improve both the sales and hype sorrounding the series. That's why I also feel so strongly about its translation, because even if Nintendo starts marketing DQ up the wazoo, people still need to play the games. And I don't want all the years of effort and marketing to blow up in SE/Nintendo's face because someone makes an internet meme about some funny name change or starts calling DQ 'that series full of hicks and monsters' (yes, I've actually seen someone say this).

 

DQ already has a major negative reputation for being cliche and grinding as it is. I'm just trying to find all ways to improve its image. But there's not much I can do when someone comes to me and says 'Yeah I tried a DQ game once. I stopped because that pink armor dude sounded stupid'.

 

That really does make you out to be some guy complaining on the internet. I'd say we all equally have the borderline complete lack of any real sway whatsoever. And yes, DQIV went overboard on accents. But I wonder if that individual would have actually bothered completing the game regardless.

 

Quite. And from the sound of it, you kind of share some of my opinions on the subtitle market. But I agree, let's not go into it here. I still stand by my view of how 'official' localization groups look down on fansubbers (for both Anime and Video games), yet use them as a measuring stick for poulairty and what to bring over to the west. You can at least agree to that, right?

 

Depends on the "official" group. There used to be a ton, all across the spectrum, and I'd say that this generalization was unfounded. Nowadays? I haven't looked, due to a complete lack of interest.

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Quite. And from the sound of it, you kind of share some of my opinions on the subtitle market. But I agree, let's not go into it here. I still stand by my view of how 'official' localization groups look down on fansubbers (for both Anime and Video games), yet use them as a measuring stick for popularity and what to bring over to the west. You can at least agree to that, right?

 

That MAY be true, but I think its more logical that they just dont care. They are looking at what the new age consumers are accustomed to and just translating what they like. As far as us old skool consumers go....what we want is ultimately unimportant since we didnt make them any money. Not saying thats the way it is mind you...but thats my take on the situation.

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Last one of the GBC/Playstation generation games was 2001. Given how limited sales were, I don't blame them for trying something new with DQ8 four years later in 2005. Reclaim the Dragon Quest name, do a fresh start on the series, and so on. Seemed to work with 8, after all.

 

I don't want to stir the pot again, but it seems like you are saying the accents either made DQVIII sell better or made DQVIII more popular. And like you've been saying in the past for my views, I don't think we can measure that. Did the accents really help the game, or was it the additional marketing that DQVIII got? Or was it the simple fact that DQVIII came with a demo disk for FFXII? Maybe a combination of all three?

 

That MAY be true, but I think its more logical that they just dont care. They are looking at what the new age consumers are accustomed to and just translating what they like. As far as us old skool consumers go....what we want is ultimately unimportant since we didnt make them any money. Not saying thats the way it is mind you...but thats my take on the situation.

 

Well, again there's a ton of factors involved. But I actually think when it comes to Anime, the 'old school' audience is the one that is still buying DVDs. But by that, I mean the people who got into Anime in the late 90s and early 00s with things on TV like Adult Swim or Pokemon or Sailor Moon. The best selling Anime DVDs in America continues to be things like Dragon Ball, Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop and Eva. But that's also the problem. The majority of people aren't buying newer Anime series beyond what they saw on TV. But like any media market, American Anime Distributors have to be progressive and licence new products in order to increase sales. So they look to what's popular online to see what they should license. But again, just because they buy the rights to Haruhi, Love Hina, Rozen Maiden or Princess Tutu, doesn't mean they will sell. Because their primary market is still those people who watch Anime on TV. The people who get Anime online aren't gonna buy DVDs...they already saw the show years ago, and for free. And in some cases, in even better quality and with better subs.

 

Anime in America suffers from a total lack of advertising. The only advertising Anime gets is from those few shows on Adult Swim and at places like Anime Expo/Comic Con. The market 'crashed' simply because the target market doesn't know what to buy. So they buy the 4th remastering of Eva over something new like Hajime no Ippo.

 

I also think a large part of the reason that Anime is crashing in the west is because of a focus and dependance on dubs. But that is a whole other argument which would take pages to explain and we really shouldn't go into that here. Suffice to say, if western distributors for Anime didn't have Dubs, there would be no need for them at all. The market runs on dubs, and more and more people are willing to watch subtitled Anime online for free than buy a $25 dvd with 4 episodes, simply because it has a dub added.

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I don't want to stir the pot again, but it seems like you are saying the accents either made DQVIII sell better or made DQVIII more popular. And like you've been saying in the past for my views, I don't think we can measure that. Did the accents really help the game, or was it the additional marketing that DQVIII got? Or was it the simple fact that DQVIII came with a demo disk for FFXII? Maybe a combination of all three?

 

You completely misunderstand me. I am saying NONE of those things. What I am saying is that trying new things with the accents, name changes and so on was a decision I understand, as it was a chance to reboot the series and get a fresh start with a fandom that hadn't heard of it. Furthermore, this fresh start seemed to work with 8. And by fresh start, I mean the SUM of all changes combined. You are really fixated on those accents it seems.

 

And regarding anime, I'm going to ask that you don't use Hajime no Ippo as an example, because it is a LUDICROUS number of episodes. (76 is not a feasible amount to release on DVD to most buyers. Card Captor Sakura is another example of something that just isn't reasonable to buy.) Again, there is always more to it. And also again, I believe we agreed that this is a rant for another topic?

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You are entiteld to dislike the change from Ludman being a haughty, wealthy man to an over-the-top wealthy Italian. However, in my opinion, changing Ludman to the Italian Rodrigo Briscoletti is a minor change all things considered. I feel that it did not impact the story, it did not change the character relationships between your hero and his daughters, and it did not do much of anything in particular except make him a more pronounced character.

 

While I have disagreed with a lot of what has been said about the translations being "good" (although I can understand how they may be seen as "necessary" by the decision-makers, and I ultimately blame consumers and their need for flashy things), I have not posted a lot because I realized early on I had my own view of DQ which was not precisely shared by other people.

 

But I certainly do not agree that the change from Ludman to Rodrigo Briscoletti is a small one. Because for me these characters are not just a footnote or trivia. Especially in DQ V, which is based so strongly on the characters and their family ties. I do not find any extra value by having him change that much, and it adds noise to the character, for me.

 

The same goes for Morrie, who uses English phrases to sound cool, being changed to an Italian. I understand a change was needed in the English versions, but not why it had to be forced on the other languages, as well... In any case, being some sort of monster battle geek himself, I think it would have been interesting and something of a meta reference if he had used Japanese words in the English version. With all his posing and weird clothes, he is not too different than any extreme otaku at an anime convention.

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While I have disagreed with a lot of what has been said about the translations being "good" (although I can understand how they may be seen as "necessary" by the decision-makers, and I ultimately blame consumers and their need for flashy things), I have not posted a lot because I realized early on I had my own view of DQ which was not precisely shared by other people.

 

LONG LIVE THE UNDERDOGS! :D

 

And those opinions are my favorite usually. So keep em coming. ;)

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Well, when even old-time friends (like Matt / Wonderslime) saw "Dragon Warrior" as something different than my vision of Japanese anime, for starters, I have had to deal with this for years, and that is not taking into account things like "swoosh" and "oomph"...

 

When others saw spells that did 120 points of damage, I saw massive spells that would destroy everything in the area, which would obliterate any person unlucky enough to be their target, with the numbers just being there for the sake of game mechanics. Madante (megamagic) was not just a spell that wasted the MP until the next stay at an inn, but one that sacrifices the caster's magic power with more permanent repercussions. The spell megante (sacrifice), would mean one may not be coming back to life again after using it (although in Dai no Daibôken, priests can use it and be brought back because of their affinity to divine power; anyone else using it is gone for good).

 

You can see how DQ fan art in North America in the years before DQ VIII was very different (or non-existent). Very few people were faithful to the original character designs.

 

People using those new names for characters, towns, monsters and spells are just one more layer of incompatibility between my views and theirs.

 

I do think having two official styles is not something likely to happen. So I agree with Dwaine (or did someone else say it) that our best bet is to learn Japanese and play those games in their original language. But then I will start talking about the region blocks of the 3DS and other consoles...

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Region Blocking is starting to not be an issue since most of the new systems are region free. As for learning Japanese...you could always just wait for someone to make a translation log. : P

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Nah, while it's been years and I should have learned by now, I still would rather go for the path that gives me the most growth, so learning Japanese is better for me than waiting to consume what someone else had to digest. Although I have to thank Mimas and Alejandro Cremades for their tips whenever I needed them.

 

And, while new home consoles are starting to be region-free (I dunno about Wii-U), the one portable console I needed for Terry, Slime Morimori and perhaps DQ VII is not... Which is a big step backwards...

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Well, when even old-time friends (like Matt / Wonderslime) saw "Dragon Warrior" as something different than my vision of Japanese anime, for starters, I have had to deal with this for years, and that is not taking into account things like "swoosh" and "oomph"...

 

When others saw spells that did 120 points of damage, I saw massive spells that would destroy everything in the area, which would obliterate any person unlucky enough to be their target, with the numbers just being there for the sake of game mechanics. Madante (megamagic) was not just a spell that wasted the MP until the next stay at an inn, but one that sacrifices the caster's magic power with more permanent repercussions. The spell megante (sacrifice), would mean one may not be coming back to life again after using it (although in Dai no Daibôken, priests can use it and be brought back because of their affinity to divine power; anyone else using it is gone for good).

 

You can see how DQ fan art in North America in the years before DQ VIII was very different (or non-existent). Very few people were faithful to the original character designs.

 

People using those new names for characters, towns, monsters and spells are just one more layer of incompatibility between my views and theirs.

 

I do think having two official styles is not something likely to happen. So I agree with Dwaine (or did someone else say it) that our best bet is to learn Japanese and play those games in their original language. But then I will start talking about the region blocks of the 3DS and other consoles...

 

I agree with everything you've said. Especially about how changing characters personality isn't a small change. Something I tried to explain myself but it seems I didn't do that well with my Simpsons Reference.

 

But the only thing I feel differently about is I don't think we should have to settle for learning Japanese and importing games just to have a product that's close to the original source material. They could have been doing that even with some minor changes for English (or German or Spanish or any other language). Heck, they did that with the translations on the GBC for games like DQI-III and Monsters. Again, I think what makes a good localization is staying as close to the original source material as possible while making neccesary changes to make it easier to read to the target audience. DQI-III did this, without having to resort to acents and cliche puns. But changing Ludman to a Italian stereotype who starts spouting things like 'Tuuti Fruuti, Spagetti, Lazagna, raviolli!' or turning Morrie into some kind of French/Italian cross over character and adding a bunch of extra letters to his dialogue....no, that's taking changes too far and wasn't necessary at all. And definitely didn't make the dialogue easier to read or close to the original source material. Morrie in Japanese speaks pretty fluent Japanese. He's more like a ringside announcer from such shows as Hajime no Ippo or Angelic Layer. Sure, they add a little flair and roll their 'r's, but they also speak basic Japanese and can be fully understood. A better comparison, if they absolutely have to use some kind of celeberty as a model, would have been to make him talk more like Michael Buffer aka 'Let's get ready to rumble!!!!" (See: http://en.wikipedia..../Michael_Buffer).

 

If anything, it feels like the localization groups just did a lot of these it to either 1) Appeal to kids or 2) Just because they personally thought it was funny. Which neither is a good reason in my view.

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I have seen "voice actors" who pride themselves on the fact they dismiss the source material, sometimes even the translated script itself, to bring more to the character. I have no interest at all in seeing how much of themselves they put in the character, I want to see the creator's intention. That is why I prefer to watch British or USAish or Canadian movies in English.

 

I agree we should be receiving something that respects the source (and I do not think these over-liberal "adaptations" really respect it, no matter how much the translators insist they do).

 

But I do not think learning a language is something we have to "settle for". It should be a plus, not a chore. I simply would not refer to learning Japanese to get something close to the original content as something bad, even when it is the only option we have left.

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Morrie in Japanese speaks pretty fluent Japanese. He's more like a ringside announcer from such shows as Hajime no Ippo or Angelic Layer. Sure, they add a little flair and roll their 'r's, but they also speak basic Japanese and can be fully understood. A better comparison, if they absolutely have to use some kind of celeberty as a model, would have been to make him talk more like Michael Buffer aka 'Let's get ready to rumble!!!!" (See: http://en.wikipedia..../Michael_Buffer).

 

OK, now that's just crazy talk. Morrie is awesome. He's called Morrie in Japanese as well and follows a Japanese archetype of a serious and dramatic character played off for comedy. Again, Honeywood and Plus Alpha were involved in his creation and their contributions is what made him become such a fan favorite. Japanese is also a language that has many levels of language formalities, while the US and Europe expresses those more by voice and body language.

 

What's funny is they did use your example for the ring announcer.

 

If anything, it feels like the localization groups just did a lot of these it to either 1) Appeal to kids or 2) Just because they personally thought it was funny. Which neither is a good reason in my view.

 

Both are fine because DQ already appeals to kids and general audiences, both with its storytelling and character design.

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OK, now that's just crazy talk. Morrie is awesome. He's called Morrie in Japanese as well and follows a Japanese archetype of a serious and dramatic character played off for comedy. Again, Honeywood and Plus Alpha were involved in his creation and their contributions is what made him become such a fan favorite. Japanese is also a language that has many levels of language formalities, while the US and Europe expresses those more by voice and body language.

 

How were they involved in his creation?

 

As for his archetype in Japanese, I'm quite well aware of it. He follows in the same style as characters such as Prince Phil from Slayers, 'Strike man' from You're Under Arrest and many others as seen in video games and Anime. But the localized version of his character isn't anything like these. In fact, I feel his accent just confuses his character to western viewers. He has all the overly dramatic poses, 'burning heart' and etc cliches you'd come to expect from his type of character in the Japnese, but all that is replaced with phrases like 'Gusto' and 'rizzoni' and other such nonsense stereotypical phrases in the localization, making him seem more like some crazy Italian stereotype obsessed with food, not a legendary monster tamer with a heart that burns for battle. Its the same argument I made for Yangus long ago. He's quite clearly suppose to be a very Shonen archtype character, seen in everything from Naturo to Kenshin to even Dragon Ball. But those key character examples were glossed over with cliche terms like 'cor blimey' and 'love a duck' and all other manner of cliche British phrases to the point that his Japanese Shonen roots are lost to western viewers. Now he's just a British stereotype.

 

I doubt you'll agree with me, but I'm seriously trying to describe my position. At the very least, I don't know how you can say an Italian stereotype is anything like the Japanese character archtype you see Morrie have in Japanese. Just because the characters have the same body movements and facial expressions, that doesn't mean they're the same character. And that's the entire HEART of what I've been trying to say. These accents and name changes CHANGE the character from the source. Imagine if you were playing Chrono Trigger, and suddenly Schala and Magus started talking in some quazi french acent and started saying things like 'Mi mother es trying to deztroy ze world, like a Crossaint stuck en four too long!' Suddenly just one 'small' change makes Magus sound 1) Cliche 2) changes the dialogue to be nothing like the original Japanese source and 3) CHANGES his character. That's EXACTLY what they've been doing with characters like Ludman and Morrie and Yangus in DQ.

 

What's funny is they did use your example for the ring announcer.

 

I agree...in the Japanese version. In the western version, he seems more like a crazy Italian stereotype who just makes random poses and starts yelling for no reason. Whereas in the Japanese version, its clear how he acts is tied to a well known character archtype in both Anime and games.

 

Both are fine because DQ already appeals to kids and general audiences, both with its storytelling and character design.

 

In Japan. The point is, DQ does NOT appeal to all ages in America. In fact, it has multiple image problems. Most 'younger' gamers think all the games are the same and just about grinding. Many 'older' gamers overlook it for its design (aka Akira Toriyama) and because its 'not Final Fantasy'.

 

All that aside, targeting a localization specifically to kids isn't going to help the series in the long run. Those kids will grow up and think of Dragon Quest as a 'kids game'. Likewise, people in our age group will look down on it as a game 'for kids'. But whatever, we've gone over this over and over again.

 

I have seen "voice actors" who pride themselves on the fact they dismiss the source material, sometimes even the translated script itself, to bring more to the character. I have no interest at all in seeing how much of themselves they put in the character, I want to see the creator's intention. That is why I prefer to watch British or USAish or Canadian movies in English.

 

I feel the same way. When I watch any foreign film, Anime, Hong Kong Cinema, European movies, etc, I always prefer the in their original language. For games unfortunately, we don't have that option 99% of the time. Unless its a game where they include both voice tracks. As for knowing voice actors who purposefully change things, I have seen it too. But that is tied mostly to Anime voice actors like Crispin Freeman and etc, and as people keep saying, that's a whole other topic.

 

However, one game related example I can give is the original dub for Lunar on PS1. It actually came with an hour long 'making of the dub' CD. And man...if there was ever a prime example of a company making arbitrary changes and hiring people off the street, it was that dub.

 

I agree we should be receiving something that respects the source (and I do not think these over-liberal "adaptations" really respect it, no matter how much the translators insist they do).

 

I fully agree. And Plus Alpha has even admitted they change the product. There's an article I posted a few pages back where they completely admit to 'finding just the right amount of alteration to find that sweet spot'. As if say 30% alteration is 'good' and 40% is 'too much'....how about no alteration except for extreme cases relating to language? All these name, accents, monster puns and etc, they aren't 'needed' and certainy doesn't hit any 'sweet spot' with me.

 

But I do not think learning a language is something we have to "settle for". It should be a plus, not a chore. I simply would not refer to learning Japanese to get something close to the original content as something bad, even when it is the only option we have left.

 

I don't think learning Japanese is bad. I have a few years worth of lessons under my belt as well and can understand some basic phrases and read Katakana, etc. What I was getting at is it shouldn't be used as an excuse for anyone who dislikes the localization we have. Or worse, used to tell anyone 'well if you don't like the translation, go learn Japanese'. I just don't accept that as an excuse for why the localization isn't as good as it could be.

 

Not saying you meant it that way But just saying, it can easily be turned to mean that. Its one of the most common cop out phrases you hear in a sub vs dub debate in relation to Anime.

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