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Poll: Localization policy

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What should the general localization policy be for articles?

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#1 FlyingRagnar

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:42 PM

The localization policy will be one of the more important policies on the wiki. It will dictate what the "official" name of each article will be. This is related to all of the various different localizations that have occurred in the series over the years.

Earlier this year, a thread/poll was conducted regarding the policy for Spell articles. You can find it here: link. It was basically decided to use the original Japanese romaji as the "official" name since these names have been unchanging throughout the series. All other names will redirect to these names. For example, Ruura is the official page the spell known as 'Return' or 'Zoom'. Searching for Zoom or Return redirects to the Ruura page, where both Zoom and Return are mentioned as localizations.

On Wikia, we decided to go with the most recent North American localization as the official names. We did this because our goal was to attract new fans of the series. Someone who recently purchased Dragon Quest IX will be googling for things like Kaboom and Cosmic Chimaera, not Explodet and Starwyvern. Either way, this is really just semantics since redirects should exist for all of the possible alternative namings.

The reason this should be revisited is that the policy should be the same for ALL of the articles on the wiki, not just the spells.

So the question is, should the Japanese romaji be used as the official name for all characters, spells, items, equipment, monsters, and locations?

I am not personally familiar with the romaji names or where I can find them, but if the community thinks that is the best idea, then that is what we will do. I am a bit more partial to the English names simply because I don't think many people would say "Ruura" in a conversation. Instead we would say "Return" or "Zoom" because those are the names used most often among fellow English speakers.

Edited by FlyingRagnar, 26 October 2010 - 07:21 PM.

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#2 King Zenith

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:52 PM

I might be in a minority here, but I think the most current localized English names should be used. The reason for this is because it would recognizable to the largest audience. Hardcore old school fans will still be familiar with the new names and new fans of the series will only be familiar with the new names.

I consider myself to he a huge fan of the series, but I'm not familiar with the Romaji names at all. Ruura I recognize from Dragon Quest 5 where the town that you learn the Return spell is called Ruraphin. Besides that and Hoimi, I am clueless.
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#3 redneckpride4ever

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:11 PM

I personally prefer the newer names anyway. Thwack and Multiheal just sound better to me than Beat and Healus.
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#4 Kenryoku_Maxis

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 10:28 PM

I think you should just do like most sites and use the localization name, but provide the Japanese name as well. Especially when you start getting into things like character names, missing content and puns, you'll need to anyway. Might as well keep it consistent with the spell and monster names.
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#5 Tom-Servo

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:21 PM

The localization policy will be one of the more important policies on the wiki. It will dictate what the "official" name of each article will be. This is related to all of the various different localizations that have occurred in the series over the years.

Earlier this year, a thread/poll was conducted regarding the policy for Spell articles. You can find it here: link. It was basically decided to use the original Japanese romaji as the "official" name since these names have been unchanging throughout the series. All other names will redirect to these names. For example, Ruura is the official page the spell known as 'Return' or 'Zoom'. Searching for Zoom or Return redirects to the Ruura page, where both Zoom and Return are mentioned as localizations.

On Wikia, we decided to go with the most recent North American localization as the official names. We did this because our goal was to attract new fans of the series. Someone who recently purchased Dragon Quest IX will be googling for things like Kaboom and Cosmic Chimaera, not Explodet and Starwyvern. Either way, this is really just semantics since redirects should exist for all of the possible alternative namings.

The reason this should be revisited is that the policy should be the same for ALL of the articles on the wiki, not just the spells.

So the question is, should the Japanese romaji be used as the official name for all characters, spells, items, equipment, monsters, and locations?

I am not personally familiar with the romaji names or where I can find them, but if the community thinks that is the best idea, then that is what we will do. I am a bit more partial to the English names simply because I don't think many people would say "Ruura" in a conversation. Instead we would say "Return" or "Zoom" because those are the names used most often among fellow English speakers.


You might want to include the more literal translations of monster names etc. It will let people know that there was a time when the names weren't censored (Devil or Hades usually were changed) and most monster names weren't face palming material. I took a look at the DQ5 PS2/DS cross reference list and man, those new names are embarrassing.
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#6 zenithian

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 06:46 PM

We should at least have a vote before creating a policy.

I don't care too much what gets picked as the article naming policy, so long as it can be consistent and all alternate names are disclosed at the beginning of the article. Consistency of the latest localization would mean that Dragon Quest III be called Dragon Warrior III, as Square Enix has not made a newer version in English since Enix America Inc re-released the game for GameBoy Color.
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#7 FlyingRagnar

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 07:26 PM

I have started a poll on this thread to get more official numbers in terms of who supports what. Please vote!

Zenithian brings up a good point with Dragon Quest III. No matter what the policy there will likely be exceptional cases which we will have to deal with. I'm not sure if it is best to keep Dragon Warrior III since it is indeed th most recent localization or if we should use Dragon Quest III for uniformity with other main game titles. Another example I can think of is the "Eye of Malroth" item in Dragon Quest II. The most recent localization is Game Boy Color, where the item is called "EvlStatue". In this case, the name was likely shortened due to text length requirements. Rather than make it "Evil Statue", I think it makes more sense to use "Eye of Malroth". These types of singular issues will have to be addressed by the community as well, but really are minor overall.
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#8 Princess Lily

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 07:57 PM

I personally prefer the newer names anyway. Thwack and Multiheal just sound better to me than Beat and Healus.


Agreed, however, Beat = Whack not Thwack which Thwack = Defeat.

I like the names; Midheal, Fullheal, Multiheal, Omniheal, Dazzle, Drain Magic

I'm Ok with; Whack, Thwack, KaThwack, Fizzle

I do not like; just about every other naming
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#9 PantheonSasuke

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 08:26 PM

Zenithian brings up a good point with Dragon Quest III. No matter what the policy there will likely be exceptional cases which we will have to deal with. I'm not sure if it is best to keep Dragon Warrior III since it is indeed th most recent localization or if we should use Dragon Quest III for uniformity with other main game titles. Another example I can think of is the "Eye of Malroth" item in Dragon Quest II. The most recent localization is Game Boy Color, where the item is called "EvlStatue". In this case, the name was likely shortened due to text length requirements. Rather than make it "Evil Statue", I think it makes more sense to use "Eye of Malroth". These types of singular issues will have to be addressed by the community as well, but really are minor overall.


Right, there are some exceptions here and there, usually indicated by the recent localizations. For example, in the last official release of Dragon Quest 1 & 2 for the GBC (Dragon Warrior 1 & 2 when it came over, of course) the hero's home, as I recall, was named Lorasia. However, the items related to that hero that are present in Dragon Quest IX use the name from the NES release, Midenhall. I think the main thing here is that all subjects occurring in I-III (and probably VII), provided there are no links to the material in the new games (such as bunicorns, which were originally Horned Rabbits in III), most likely go by the names they were given in the first official translations.

All original/alternate names will get mention in articles, yo. We aren't trying to use the new stuff to steamroll over the original translations, that'd be hiding bits of the history if it was done intentionally, and that wouldn't be cool. That's what I want to say, anyhow.
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#10 zenithian

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 02:08 AM

Okay, this may sound stupid, but what's the differece between the two Japanese options?

How would future name changes be addressed? When DQ4DS was released, there was a big push at Wikipedia to rename the Tenku games (IV, V, VI) adding their new subtitles and renaming locations and characters within the articles. This wiki would require many more changes should I, II, or III be remade.
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#11 Fossilgojira

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 03:04 PM

Okay, this may sound stupid, but what's the differece between the two Japanese options?

How would future name changes be addressed? When DQ4DS was released, there was a big push at Wikipedia to rename the Tenku games (IV, V, VI) adding their new subtitles and renaming locations and characters within the articles. This wiki would require many more changes should I, II, or III be remade.

When/if the Erdrick trilogy is remade, then accommodations will be made to reflect those changes. If you are worried about there being mass-migration of names that clogs down the wiki, remember that several of the monsters have already been given new names, and some of the locations have not been changed at all.

We'll just keep using the EoA names where necessary for the time being.

Edited by Fossilgojira, 27 October 2010 - 03:12 PM.

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#12 Ruesen

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 05:56 PM

Yeah, keep it with the current generation of the names. I do like the original translations (Beat, Blazemost, and so on) but it should stay up to date with the current names so people can find them easier.
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#13 FlyingRagnar

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 06:19 PM

Japanese Romanji is the Japanese name using the latin alphabet. Japanese Kanji is the Japanese name using the chinese alphabet.

Example: Fleurette in Dragon Quest Swords. Romanji name: Setia. Kanji name: セティア.

It's really about which alphabet to use.
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#14 Melios

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 08:16 PM

Well, using the Japanese names would be extremely confusing for those of us who only played the NA versions. AS it is, I advocate using the most recent translations (i.e. Plus Alpha), since that's what DQ8, DQ9, DQ4 DS, DQ5 DS, and eventually DQ6 DS use.
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#15 zenithian

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 07:21 PM

Zenithian brings up a good point with Dragon Quest III. No matter what the policy there will likely be exceptional cases which we will have to deal with. I'm not sure if it is best to keep Dragon Warrior III since it is indeed th most recent localization or if we should use Dragon Quest III for uniformity with other main game titles. Another example I can think of is the "Eye of Malroth" item in Dragon Quest II. The most recent localization is Game Boy Color, where the item is called "EvlStatue". In this case, the name was likely shortened due to text length requirements. Rather than make it "Evil Statue", I think it makes more sense to use "Eye of Malroth". These types of singular issues will have to be addressed by the community as well, but really are minor overall.

When we do write up the policy, you'll need to include exceptions to the general rule. If we did use the latest localization, we could keep Dragon Warrior for the first game article and use Dragon Quest for the series; this would be consistent with how the first three games are presented at Wikipedia and with a general "latest localization policy". Also, most people looking for information on Dragon Quest are looking for the series, not the first game.

Yeah, keep it with the current generation of the names. I do like the original translations (Beat, Blazemost, and so on) but it should stay up to date with the current names so people can find them easier.

This would be irrelevant as we could, will, and already have many redirects to whatever the article name is for that localization (or japanese name). Just because the article name may be different that what somone may be used to, doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to find it.

Japanese Romanji is the Japanese name using the latin alphabet. Japanese Kanji is the Japanese name using the chinese alphabet.

Example: Fleurette in Dragon Quest Swords. Romanji name: Setia. Kanji name: セティア.

It's really about which alphabet to use.

For spell article names, we used the Romanji (policy before the wiki merge), which is also my vote.

Well, using the Japanese names would be extremely confusing for those of us who only played the NA versions. AS it is, I advocate using the most recent translations (i.e. Plus Alpha), since that's what DQ8, DQ9, DQ4 DS, DQ5 DS, and eventually DQ6 DS use.

Just because the article name would use Japanese written in Romanji, for example, it wouldn't mean that the entire article would need to use the Roamnji name. Wikipedia has a policy for the use of American/British English where both are correct and one cannot be used to correct the other. We could also apply that logic for the various DQ localizations (and there have been many).

My final thoughts on this matter:

Kafrizzle now relates to two different spells, Merazoma (in Dragon Quest VIII), and Meragaia (in Dragon Quest IX; Merazoma has now been localized as Kafrizz, a "new spell"). I think IX added a few more spells to what had been the three tierd spell families, but I'm away from my guides at the moment so I can't check. For now, there is an explanation on Kafrizz and Kafrizzle, but it seems a disambiguation page of Kafrizzle with redirects would be more effective (and what if Square Enix should add a fifth spell to those groups?).

I will go along with whatever the community decides; even if it may be different than what I feel is the better of the various ideas. I just think we should develop a policy that is consistent, with few exceptions to the rule.
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#16 PantheonSasuke

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 05:50 PM

The only evidence I'm aware of in-game that would support the making of the original trilogy from Dragon Warrior to Dragon Quest is the DQVC theme they had in IX, the Dragon Quest III Fayre (I think the original was actually attached with hyphens, mind). Then again, that's only one instance I'm aware of, similar to when merchandise featured a Roto's Sword, though we now know from a few examples in the games themselves that Erdrick, the title originally given in the translations, is the one in use. While uniformity with the game titles would be nice, I don't think it would be all that big a deal either way if they were kept as what they were last presented as (I think I-III, VII, the first two Monsters games, and the Torneko dungeon games would probably apply here).

Regarding the localizations of spells, I kinda like the Romanji names, although the style used now is at least appropriate in Frizz's instance. The spells have, at least in translated form, a sort of ranking in their names that indicates their strength, most noticeable in the first translations (Blaze, Blazemore, Blazemost... no idea what they would throw in there now, maybe Blazemorer?). With the Japanese names I notice an issue. If Meragaia is now the strongest of those fire spells, with Merazoma ranking below it, what of the previous games where this was not the case? The strongest of these spells is often depicted as a massive ball of fire that is dropped on an enemy, then blasts upward as a flaming tower. In all it's translated appearances that I recall, this is Kafrizzle, but between titles in Japanese this appearance was moved, and I believe Merazoma was just made into a smaller ball of fire that just collides with the enemy like the previous spells before it. That's all just musing, though, since the other spells seem to go along with this (Kaboom being surpassed by Kaboomle, Plus Alpha might've just got themselves into a spot with the initial namings :P). Also, I believe the fourth variant among spells was introduced in Joker. I also think that's where Zam first showed up.

And yeah, I think the parts regarding redirects was something I noticed before, but was uncertain of pointing out. While familiarity is nice, the name in use wouldn't change the content, except in odd instances like the Frizz spells previously mentioned. I think it would just determine the name of the article, and maybe its name appearing within its article and throughout the rest of the wiki (usually, if you look up an animal on wikipedia it will be named after the genus species, but a more popular name may be used in its place, I think this was what Zenithian meant).

In any case, I agree with Zenithian on a consistent policy, though there may be a lot of exceptions to note, ehheh.

Now I'm getting all this uncertainty about posting... I don't wanna start any fights or anything, yo, just put down what I'm thinking. Hope it isn't anything I should've just kept to myself...
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#17 hawkeye77o4

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 02:39 PM

why can't you use all of them? treat them like synonyms in a dictionary. They'll all have similar descriptions if not the same, but the only difference list which games it appeared in.

ex)

Blaze - small fire ball spell, 10-20 damage to one target.
Appears in - DW3-7

See Also: Hurt, Firebal, Frizz, (JAP name)

I think it'll let people find exactly what they want. If they are old school fans, they'll look up whatever name they want and get the same result. newer fans will look up the new names or whichever ones they know and still get the answer they were looking for in addition seeing that in previous games it was called something else.

This is a complete wiki of DQ/DQ therefore it should have EVERYTHING including every spell name, origin name, what it does in each game, etc.

Use them all!

Edited by hawkeye77o4, 19 November 2010 - 02:42 PM.

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#18 PantheonSasuke

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 08:37 PM

why can't you use all of them? treat them like synonyms in a dictionary. They'll all have similar descriptions if not the same, but the only difference list which games it appeared in.

ex)

Blaze - small fire ball spell, 10-20 damage to one target.
Appears in - DW3-7

See Also: Hurt, Firebal, Frizz, (JAP name)

I think it'll let people find exactly what they want. If they are old school fans, they'll look up whatever name they want and get the same result. newer fans will look up the new names or whichever ones they know and still get the answer they were looking for in addition seeing that in previous games it was called something else.

This is a complete wiki of DQ/DQ therefore it should have EVERYTHING including every spell name, origin name, what it does in each game, etc.

Use them all!


You sorta point out the problem in this at the start. "They'll all have similar descriptions if not the same". If this is the case, why even separate the articles? Giving each different name attached to a subject over its different translations its own article would likely raise the number of articles on the wiki by triple, probably even more, making it weighted down with nearly identical articles when things could be more organized and just reference these names under one established title, not excluding anything. The different appearances and names would still be noted, so people would still be able to find what they were looking for, the only difference being that it would all be kept to a single page instead of being spread across multiple ones.

I think wikis are meant to be like encyclopedias, concentrating on certain topics and attempting to provide a good deal of info regarding these things, while dictionaries usually just provide definitions and not much else. The approach of articles per name would probably fit better in the context of a dictionary instead of a wiki, but that's just how it occurs to me. Others might like this approach to the wiki, though it seems to me that doing it would just be dividing material into duplicate articles...
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#19 hawkeye77o4

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 12:08 AM

I recommended this because I don't think its possible to lump all spells into the same page even though they seem similar. Each game makes each spell unique in some way. For example, Hurt (DW1), Firebal (DW2), Blaze (DW3) are all the same spell pretty much. But each game makes them different. How do you differenciate between Firebal (DW2) and Firebal (DW3)? With your logic someone will look up Firebal for DW2 and get the description of Sizz, and if they haven't played the newer games, will be totally confused.

The way I suggest is basically do what DQ fansites, just like Dragon's Den, do. List every single spell based on their specific game. When someone does a search for Firebal, the search will bring up both DW2 description, and DW3-7, and even Sizz (4ds, 5ds, 8, 9) because they are related, they're synonyms based on the description.

Same thing goes for weapons and armor. How are you going to lump the Broad Sword, Iron Broad Sword, Steel Broad Sword, Iron Sword, etc together as the same weapon when they are completely different based on whatever game they are in?

To clarify once more my suggestion, I'll choose the example from the begining of the topic.

EX)

Return - spell that instantly warps user back to previous location.
Seen in - DW1, 2, 3, 4, 7

See also: Zoom

\/
\/
\/

Zoom - spell that instantly warps user back to previous location.
Seen in - DQ4(DS), DQ5(DS), DQ8, DQ9

See also: Return

P.S. - I think adding the Japanese name for everything would be way too confusing. what audience are we after anyways? Japanese or Americans?

Edited by hawkeye77o4, 20 November 2010 - 12:17 AM.

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#20 PantheonSasuke

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 11:10 PM

I recommended this because I don't think its possible to lump all spells into the same page even though they seem similar. Each game makes each spell unique in some way. For example, Hurt (DW1), Firebal (DW2), Blaze (DW3) are all the same spell pretty much. But each game makes them different. How do you differenciate between Firebal (DW2) and Firebal (DW3)? With your logic someone will look up Firebal for DW2 and get the description of Sizz, and if they haven't played the newer games, will be totally confused.


Again, there will be indication in the articles regarding other titles. Any confusion will hopefully be remedied if the individual takes the time to look at the page and see that what they're looking for is actually there. Any differences between games would also be noted under their appropriate headers, such as the nature of Firebal in II and how it became a group attack in III (additionally, the stronger from, Firebane/Sizzle, is present in both II and III and acts as a group targeting spell).

Heck, my original take on it was to have all spells in that spell's 'family' being under one article (ie, the Frizz article would've also had the info for Frizzle, Kafrizz, and Kafrizzle). This was probably trying to be too organized. Treating each spell individually is probably for the best, but by each individual name might be going a tad extreme.

The way I suggest is basically do what DQ fansites, just like Dragon's Den, do. List every single spell based on their specific game. When someone does a search for Firebal, the search will bring up both DW2 description, and DW3-7, and even Sizz (4ds, 5ds, 8, 9) because they are related, they're synonyms based on the description.

Same thing goes for weapons and armor. How are you going to lump the Broad Sword, Iron Broad Sword, Steel Broad Sword, Iron Sword, etc together as the same weapon when they are completely different based on whatever game they are in?


I'm not sure of the specifics, but I believe there are ways to make redirects also lead to certain tags placed in an article. In this case, typing 'Firebal' into the search would link to the Sizz article, but place the viewer at the first instance of Firebal (which I believe would technically be II, even though the GBC remake of I made Hurt and Hurtmore into Firebal and Firebane, I believe). Again, though, I'm uncertain of the code behind this and wouldn't know how to do it presently.

And lumping together content isn't hard when there are headers that can be put in regarding appearance pertaining to game. Also, if the objective becomes making the articles game specific, we'd have over 10 instances of the slime article because of its appearances throughout the entire series, which is a bit much. And then if you apply that to several other recurring monsters, like drackies, bubble slimes, restless armours, and so many others... my initial guess of the articles tripling goes more in the range of an increase by sixfold. There'd possibly be over 10,000 articles, and that's nothing brag-worthy when most articles are practically copies of one another. They may have differences, but I don't think these differences would merit making several small articles when a single one can easily contain all the info in an organized way.

I'm probably exaggerating those numbers in my head, though. I've always been more into monsters, so my thoughts usually turn to those articles, and there are quite a few critters throughout the games, though they may not be able to meet the same numbers as characters, spells, and locations put together. Chances are my triple-guess would probably be more accurate with the articles-per-game, but that still seems excessive and prone to near-duplicate articles.
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